We expect young men to grow up and become "husband material". Due to various changes (standards for husbands rising, economic opportunity diminishing), this goal has become clearly unreachable for many.
I would opt out if I was a poor young man today, and focus on enjoying the small pleasures (drinking with my buddies, playing PS5). The hill they are expected to climb is ludicrous, and I am not surprised they respond by walking away.
Its not wrong the 80/20 rule applies to the dating apps in a real way, a small minority of males on them sweep the majority of matches and anyone not it the upper quartile may as well not even apply. When your part of the 80% of males in compilation against eachother for the lower 20% of matches it can be daunting. You can choose free porn, play games, drink, and hang with friends or fight the constant rejection, and pay for dating app middlemen to show you to more women and if you finally score date you still have to pay for both of you and have no guarantee that it will go any where. (Its not unheard of for women to use dating apps as a source of free meals.) So why not opt out.
To what you said, I will add this is not only about guys. I've female friends who are in the same situation (bottom 80%) and who have opted out. And if you are gay...
I think we should subsidize weight-loss medications.
That’s pretty naive. My mother and her friends love recounting stories about doing exactly that in the 1980s while travelling. Probably just a date at a restaurant but certainly it’s not unheard of. A glamorous date at a nice restaurant vs a soup kitchen? Come on.
I have many female friends. I hear a lot of worry about avoiding bad dates, not only for their sanity but also for their physical safety. I don’t hear them bragging about free meals.
> What are the rising standards though? Not beating your wife?
Unironically yes. It is much easier for women to leave their marriage than it has historically been. This has lead to rising standards for how husbands need to behave.
Being emotionally available, participating in chores, providing a comfortable lifestyle while not working all the time, being reasonably well-read and good conversationalist, etc.
Have you not noticed how much more we expect from men as partners?
NB I’m not saying we shouldn’t expect more from them. I’m saying many are seeing the list of demands, and opting out of even trying
> Being emotionally available, participating in chores, providing a comfortable lifestyle while not working all the time, being reasonably well-read and good conversationalist, etc.
I...honestly cannot tell if this is meant ironically. Those things seem like table stakes for being an adult. It's not "expecting more of them" to simply expect people to...grow up, and help care for the other people in their lives. You write "participating in chores" as if that's one of a list of demands!
Pretending there is no difference between men and women is a total dead end.
Emotions and social games are a lot trickier to navigate for men, who didn't have umpteen years of evolution to practice.
In a lot of ways, we're expecting men to be more like women, and women more like men, while hating each other for it. Divide and conquer, the oldest game in the book.
Men being expected to be in tune with their emotions to the same level, and women expected to be has ruthless and dominant as any male in business; just to pick two.
The sad part is that most men "need" feminine energy to complement their own, and vice versa.
Being the perfect adult is table stakes? This description is the ideal middle class man. If that's table stakes to you, either you've got one hell of a catch or you've got a few more years left before you settle. Most adults, full grown adults, men and women, don't meet all those requirements. I do, most don't.
Agreed, that's the one part that's not table stakes as not anyone can count on it. That's a nice to have and an aspiration. I almost called that out as a minor exception, but didn't because there's still something there in spirit, namely values even if not execution:
For, it is table stakes to be generally decent at having a work ethic at all, and to also value family time (within the reasonable constraints of work), and thus to do your reasonable best within your means even if that means a pretty meager, but passable material lifestyle, and/or there's an attempt to consistently make time for family regularly every week, even if it's a little limited by work schedule.
It only takes 10 minutes to tuck your child in and chat with them a little and if that's all you have most days because you're busy buying food and rent for them, that's OK. You have to eat and they have to eat, so it takes no extra time to eat together, even if it's a McDonald's or a can of beans and a loaf of bread, even if it doesn't work out every day.
But it's generally seen as not very good to go too extreme in one direction or the other (borderline homeless / broken home due to not working at all or habitually quitting jobs rashly without better lined up isn't OK, and "working rich" dad who never sees the kids ever and seems disinterested the one time he has an hour once week also isn't OK)
A similar example of values being more important than execution, is that nothing stops a very uneducated parent from highly valuing education (and in America, this is a lot more common in Hispanic, Jewish[1], and Asian cultures, for example) and pushing their child to exceed their own meager achievement. The fact that the parent may never be able to cogently discuss the things the kid is learning once they get past elementary school doesn't really stop a darned thing. The palpable incredible pride says it all.
Contrast this to the cultures where kids who try to achieve are seen as traitors and getting too big for their britches. I was very sad to know some young men in Arkansas when I went to college there who struggled with these mixed expectations, coming from a community where they felt that they would be borderline ostracized for rising "so much higher" than they started. This was one of the things in Hillbilly Elegy, which I recently read, that really rang true, even if some others seemed questionable or played up for bestseller appeal (the violent criminal uncle tall tales come to mind -- nugget of truth in them or not, they were obviously selected from the available universe of lore to paint a certain engaging picture-story)
Values matter, even when they can't be realized. Rules matter, even when you're getting away with breaking them. Hypocrisy is a feature, not a bug, contrary to popular belief. Even an ill-observed rule imposes clear costs on its avoidance, etc.
[1] Who can forget the line in Fiddler on the Roof, where the poor working father protagonist is fantasizing about being rich, but after singing about big houses and fancy clothes, settles on time to get educated as the greatest luxury he pines for?
> "If I were rich, I'd have the time that I lack
> To sit in the synagogue and pray
> Maybe have a seat by the Eastern wall
> And I'd discuss the holy books with the learned men, several hours every day
I don't know why youre quoting "perfect adult", I didn't use that term once.
I said "ideal middle class man." And it is. Every reasonable woman wants that, every man wants to be at least that, yet most men don't check every one of those boxes, particularly being able to provide a comfortable lifestyle without working all the time, that one is maybe 10% of men. A good starting goal? Sure. Table stakes? Good luck.
> Being the perfect adult is table stakes? This description is the ideal middle class man. If that's table stakes to you, either you've got one hell of a catch or you've got a few more years left before you settle. Most adults, full grown adults, men and women, don't meet all those requirements. I do, most don't.
Alright, so you win that one lol. I glossed over my own comment. Still, I was using the term very obviously hyperbolically, and still referred explicitly to the "ideal middle class man."
So let's do something. What is the perfect adult? how does the perfect adult, not billionaire level or something like that but perfect middle class man, differ from your table stakes? I can guess tall and incredibly handsome, but beyond that, how is he better than your bare minimum requirements?
Have you considered that maybe there isn't a "perfect" or "ideal" person, of either sex? Other than "providing a comfortable lifestyle while not working all the time" (which is arguable even what that means), the things listed above are literally just being an adult in a mature relationship. Helping with chores? Being emotionally available? Knowing how to hold a conversation? How are these qualities that you think are so difficult to attain that only the "ideal" man has them?
Most people don't have all of this traits. Most people have childhoods with abuse, or neglect, or bad parenting, or accidents, and young adults make mistakes and have hard times. Lots of people don't have resources. Being well read requires a lot of free time, being a good conversationalist requires experiences and perspective. Being emotionally available either requires having never been screwed over by someone you trusted or years of intense inner work. Becoming a well rounded person is very difficult to attain, hence why most people fall short on at least one of those qualities.
You won't accept less. That's great, I won't either. But it's not table stakes, youre demanding someone above average, it took me a decade of wandering through the desert and real inner work and self betterment to become and then find an above average partner, and I'm lucky. I have no problem with your standards, you should have them, but calling them table stakes is unreasonable, you should understand that what you want, and I don't know you so it may be warranted, is absolutely above average and not the base model man. I wish they were bare minimum qualities of most people, the world would be a much better place.
But there is a difference between seeing a highly publicized and pervasive media push that there is a huge list of things you must already be good at... vs casually starting a relationship and learning along the way you must do all these things for long term success.
Not to mention there is no indication from women that they will tolerate the few things you need to learn about and improve.
My dad taught me boys do the opposite. My schoolmates told me that emotions were not for boys. I'm pretty sure I'm not a unique snowflake.
> participating in chores
Dad said that boys don't do domestic chores. If a couple lives inside an apartment, all chores are domestic.
> providing a comfortable lifestyle while not working all the time
Jesus, this is not exactly trivial for most of us.
> being reasonably well-read
Very few of my friends, family and acquaintances are well-read. I'm pretty sure they don't even know what table stakes are. But it's not a hard requirement, they have kids anyway.
> good conversationalist
Not a trivial thing either. Incidentally, being well-read doesn't help if your partner is not, or if your partner is onto serious books and you like to read horny gay romps.
Well, I guess don’t move to the big city and try to settle down with an IG baddie?
I appreciate the fact that people like this exist, everywhere, in large quantities. But that means that the dating market, in some places, have decided there is no product market fit. Very HN statement.
Now, the options are - rebrand, or move to new market, or government regulation to provide ‘protectionist’ tariffs and trade barriers to promote ‘homegrown industries’.
I prefer the free market, but I can understand why the West Virginia coal miners want the government to bail them out. I’m not sure what to do about this state of events at all.
Hm yeah do some chores for sure. Being emotionally available and verbal is an evolution in society, but it doesn’t cost much, assuming you were already willing to spend some time with your partner?
I don’t think being well read is a demand for most of America.
The problem is two wrongs is worse than one; you're never going to solve discrimination against one group by discriminating against another, for example.
Presumably it's a postulate, and applies in all reasonable cases. The generalization was given as an example of a larger truism.
To give a specific example: Solving discrimination against Maronites by instituting a system of power sharing which discriminated against Shiites and Druze set Lebanon up for failure. Can you think of an instance where reactionary counter-discrimination solved an issue long-term? Why be skeptical of the assertion of "two wrongs don't make a right"? It's generally observable in all cases that retributive "justice" simply creates resentment, deepens issues and erodes belief and trust in social institutions.
I'm gay and probably slightly autustic so for me the very natural goal of having a partner is indeed unreachable. The society doesn't give me any other goal to pursue, so I'm stuck just smoking weed and watching YouTube, which is depressing.
> the very natural goal of having a partner is indeed unreachable
It is not. Plenty of gay men in the world. About one in ten, last time I checked the statistics. But I'll admit it's real tough for most of us out there, not because we are few, but due to all the other reasons. You don't need no goals given by society; make some of your own.
> Do you really believe pursuing a relationship is the only real goal you can work toward?
Yes, and I'm tired of pretending it isn't. I'm sorry I'm a human, not some higher being that exists above natural constraints of biological brain that spent millions of years evolving around the concepts of "be a member of a tribe" and "have a family".
My tribe will fire me the second I stop being useful to them by the way, so yeah.
Ah yes. Whenever someone asks me what can we do about poverty I'll just reply "I know plenty of people with lucrative jobs, get off the internet and touch grass".
We've been telling people for years already that them being lonely is their personal failure, not some systematic problem, yet people, on average, keep getting even more lonely. What makes you think that continuing to present loneliness as a personal failure will eventually solve the problem?
Hahaha IKR I keep hearing that advice and like has it EVER worked for ANYONE? If someone doesn't believe things can get better, then you can't make a depressed horse drink or however it goes. The thing that needs to be learned CANNOT be communicated.
I discovered it for myself after like 6 months of therapy. Give it a shot if you can. Trust me, being smug about it to people online is so worth it.
And on a societal level it's an interesting philosophical question, but waiting around and hoping that something external comes along to magically fix the problem that you're experiencing personally isn't a plan for success. That feeling of loneliness isn't going to go away sitting at home, playing another single player video game by yourself,
it's going to go away by socializing with people, in some sort of fashion.
It's gonna be cringe. it's gonna be awkward. it'll be fine, you'll survive.
Poverty is a wholly different problem, with different solutions, and comparing poverty to loneliness isn't doing you any favors. If we're gonna play that game, how about comparing it to obesity? society bears some responsibility for McDonald's, and for not giving good education on nutrition, but the reality there is that there are some wonderful new drugs to help with that problem. even with the new drugs and before them, at the end of the day, it still is a personal decision on whether or not to do something about the problem.
so the government isn't going to come in and start forcing people to attend friendship-making ceremonies. the solution to your loneliness is pushing yourself to go out and find people. don't go off trying to fix the systemic societal level problem for everybody, just solve for one. fortunately you don't have to wait around for a magic anti-lonliness drug to be research and formulated and then undergo trials before approval by the FDA. the drug for loneliness is alcohol. go do a lubricating amount of it around other people.
> And on a societal level it's an interesting philosophical question, but waiting around and hoping that something external comes along to magically fix the problem that you're experiencing personally isn't a plan for success.
Yeah, I suppose the only reason to point out that a problem is systemic and therefore requires a systemic solution is if you're part of a group or movement that is proposing a systemic solution. Otherwise, there's no point, because the only other solution is to solve the problem for yourself at the individual level anyway.
> We've been telling people for years already that them being lonely is their personal failure, not some systematic problem, yet people, on average, keep getting even more lonely. What makes you think that continuing to present loneliness as a personal failure will eventually solve the problem?
Your logic here seems to be that, over time, telling people it's a personal failure (which I don't agree has been the rhetoric, but for the sake of conversation...) will lead them to fix that failure - which isn't at all my experience. There's plenty of issues one can point to that, just because we've been informing people of for many years, doesn't mean any progress has been made.
> Ah yes. Whenever someone asks me what can we do about poverty I'll just reply "I know plenty of people with lucrative jobs, get off the internet and touch grass".
If someone said, "I'm in a wheelchair, so having a job is unreachable" then I might respond in a similar way as GP (though perhaps a bit nicer)... because you can have a job while in a wheelchair, and have a relationship while gay and autistic.
Boys today are being left behind because they're not given attention by the school system. That's what I take away from not having any expectations of them.
I would opt out if I was a poor young man today, and focus on enjoying the small pleasures (drinking with my buddies, playing PS5). The hill they are expected to climb is ludicrous, and I am not surprised they respond by walking away.