I’ve never understood how asking out strangers in bars or on the street is supposed to yield high quality matches. Developing crushes on people you actually know in your social scenes is more reasonable. That’s probably the ideal scenario if it turns out to be mutual.
But it’s human nature that the vast majority of the time it will be one-sided on the guy’s part. So you’ve got to somehow maintain a social scene with enough single women to make even one match plausible for you, while those women are constantly inundated with unwanted attention and feelings from the guys in the group, without the group either splintering or developing social norms that prohibit romantic overtures. That’s asking for some incredibly robust social technology in an era where we should be grateful that any kind of IRL social scene even exists.
It works because you can do high volume screening quickly. In theory online dating was supposed to speed that up even more increasing volume and improving results. Unfortunately the online screening was too fast and you end up over screening and throwing away too many potential matches and selecting bad candidates because Most people aren’t actually sure what they want.
I think it mainly has to do with women's screening process. Women have to ignore or immediately filter out 90%+ of matches/messages online because they get so many. But if a man approaches a woman in person, they are at least going to be looked at and considered. It's a hack for getting to the front of a long queue.
In person also allows for demonstrating qualities that aren't apparent in a profile. People's vibes are often very different in person vs. online. A man approaching a woman irl signals courage and confidence in itself if done non-awkwardly, so that also gives a guy a leg up over a bunch of dating profiles that are unknown quantities.
Disclaimer: married for 9 years so this is all theoretical
Also in real life, you get way more information about the other person, than from a mostly fake profile and picture.
Literally passing the smell test ...
Depends on the irl situation.
Dance hall: loud music, lot's of alcohol. What's left of the information?
The ideal situation is an honest dating selection system. Only if/when it is honest, good combinations for dating emerge. There you have it: dating happens in irl.
I can speak from experience that such systems exist(ed) in electronic form.
Unless we are talking about extreme introverts, I don't think there is a setting where meeting in person is worse, than writing emails/chatting.
Dance hall: you can see how the other person dances and moves in real (and you don't have to be drunk, if you don't want to). How she talks, with whom she talks and how. And yes, how she smells, how she talks, how she acts. And if sparks seem to fly both ways, then you can also go outside for a bit to see if it was more than just the ecstasy of the moment. All of this way more direct unfiltered and unmodified information than an online exchange.
"The ideal situation is an honest dating selection system."
And traditionally this used to be the village dance. Today it is in general mixed, but if you like online dating, then I don't want to talk it out of you. Just that in my experience lots of online romances I witnessed with other persons, turned out to be mostly vaporware, not working in real life.
Dating isn’t an interview. It can be but it doesn’t have to be. The less of a formal interview it is the more you get a taste for if you like hanging out with the person.
Dating is very much an interview. It doesn’t have to be formal. Whatever that means. But there are things that we hopefully all consider “hard no’s” and is this person worth me putting time in on.
You need to spend time with someone to build a relationship, but that takes a lot of effort, patience, and vulnerability, especially when you're starting from zero. But actively participating in various interest groups and other social circles is not a bad way to start.
Depends on your interests… If your interest is FPS gaming and you are a straight male it’s probably not a good spot. If you have an interest in sewing then maybe odds are you your favor. Still just common interests isn’t enough dating takes active effort like work it does not magically happen for most
The volume in the bar is a lot higher than you would expect. On a good night I could hit 3-4 bars with 50-100 people each. Easily screen off most, and talk to say 5-10. I’m by no means attractive but I could Usually get a number and convert 1/3 or 1/4 into a date.
The difference is that I didn’t have to swipe on the bulk of the candidates I rejected but also that those initially rejected still had a chance if a positive interaction happened.
Compare that to 50 per day out of a pretty poor pool and stiff competition and your odds are not looking great.
You develop an eye for it eventually. Some people unavailable, some are just not interested that night, some are hostile. These things change through the night so someone that was hostile earlier might warm up or become friendly over time. The body language is Usally a good tell.
They are also other signs that hint towards compatibility such as wealth, class, education, social anxiety you get a feel for it over time. I would trust that over what you see in a profile. Not that you can’t lie on those just that it’s much harder.
Plus The dark things people tell you after a drink or 2 would often be enough to get one cancelled off the internet.
Also keep in mind that a lot of people screened themselves out just by not going out. All those gals that don’t have anything money, live with their parents and go to bed at 9 or have no friends. You won’t find them at the bar but on tinder you might
> I’ve never understood how asking out strangers in bars or on the street is supposed to yield high quality matches. Developing crushes on people you actually know in your social scenes is more reasonable. That’s probably the ideal scenario if it turns out to be mutual.
I think meeting people in shared-activity groups is the best bet. You already know your interests align and you enjoy the same things. My old triathlon club would have like 6 weddings every year. Turns out getting to know people over 80-mile bike rides is a great way to learn about someone.
And thars the downside of being a nerd or even a jock. As a male you don't really meet (heterosexual) romantic partners doing stuff guys traditionally like. I've been to a bunch of tech/gaming meetups and can count the number of women there on my hands. And none were single either. Probably because they dated and found someone on an online app.
Of course I still do it for general friends purposes (when you live alone and wfh as a man, you NEED to make an effort to get out just to get out of your own head), but Idk how effective advice this is for someone who wants to meet someone in a timely matter. Not everyone wants to play the long game.
Based on my college clubs, I can believe it. It's a shame I simply don't like dancing. Dancing and Tabletop are two things I tried for a very long time to get into for the sake of meeting friends and I simply don't like neither.
Tech-heavy Bay Area spinoffs like Seattle also have the same phenomenon. It's not uncommon to go to a salsa/bachata dance and then suddenly realize that one is surrounded by male software engineers.
For the same reasons as you'd juggle clubs on a unicycle and play piano - increased core body strength and flexibility improve dexterity and extend your chair sitting typing lifespan.
Also helps build strength for when you climb those 300m comms masts or enduring those crazy G turns flipping lines in low level geophysical aircraft surveying.
I fully agree. It's all about meeting enough potential partners with similar interests. Shared-activities with healthy gender balance (at least for heterosexual relationships) are the best bet for most people. Many such activities also don't require long-term commitment or hanging out with same people all the time, so rejection isn't as awkward as in workplace for example.
Of all things I tried shared activities worked the best, Tinder the worst.
Yeah, gender balance is often skewed. While I'm not on the market I've noticed this with the hiking community--overall, it appears approximately balanced but most actual hikes are not. The long hikes are highly male-dominated, the short ones are rather female-dominated. I've met some women that joined specifically to look for dates--and I've never seen any of them in a group that wasn't female dominant.
Coed team sports are a great way to avoid this, since there’s necessarily a rough gender balance. Join your local ultimate frisbee summer league or whatever.
After I graduated from college, I exclusively got dates online through various websites (this was pre-tinder, so no hookup sites) because I hated approaching women at bars. This did result in some shorter-term relationships (a few years each), but nothing long-term.
I didn't meet my wife until I joined a language meetup. I met lots of friends through this group and after 5 years, I started dating my wife and we have now been married for almost 9 years.
The meetup is gone, but I'm still friends with the core members of the group (we are all married now. I think there are 5 couples that met their spouses from the group) and we meet on a monthly basis.
Shared-activity groups are the best thing outside of college because you are more likely to meet someone compatible due to your interests.
There is something about doing physical activity with others, that make others more likely to open up as well, so you can have a bit deeper conversations. Maybe it's related to the dopamine you release or something.
If you want to meet people socially and possibly develop more intimate/romantic relationships with them, you need to join clubs or groups or go to events where that is the objective, i.e. social clubs, not sports or gaming clubs or other activites that tend to be predominantly single-gender.
These people aren't talking about sports that require skill. They just mean physical activity anyone can do, like hiking.
The actual meaning of the advice is to find a physical activity you can tolerate in order to find a mate who isn't fat. It is a way to make their completely reasonable and relatable position on fat people seem like something noble. "My mate and I enjoy hiking. It is our shared interest." The reason I know what I'm saying is true is because every time this discussion comes up, people peddle the shared interest bullshit and inevitably bring up 'physical activity.' And sorry for getting a hair up my ass about it, I just find it crazy when people can't just say what they mean: If you are an average man who prefers a woman with a nice body and you dislike or are unsuccessful on dating apps, try going to a group activity that will filter out fat chicks. The end. Nothing pretending this is anything but another attempt at finding a mate.
You're getting hung up on "fat" here as if it's purely an aesthetic preference
Physical activity filters for people who actually care about themselves. If you can't be bothered to look after your body, then you're likely not going to be any good at looking after your relationship, your family, raising children etc.
I kind of disagree with this connection that fat women == not going to be any good at relationship and family and children. In my experience fatness has no correlation with their ability to raise kids or their attentiveness in a relationship (just go to an average parent meeting at an average school). Often times it’s actually the opposite because they can be more understanding as you both get old and unattractive together, or are more likely to work harder at it because they know they’re at a disadvantage for their fatness.
Of course I also know plenty of guys who cheat on their wife as she gets older and less hot (the classic “he gets older but all his dates are the same age”), and theres a danger for thin women who are filtered for their physical traits like this.
That is such a good way of putting it and I agree wholeheartedly. The body and mind are like the absolute foundation that you build other things on top of. If your mind and body are not sound, then what chance do the other things have?
This is cliched advice that I am slowly beginning to hate. I honestly can't imagine many things more pathetic than a couple going on a jog together. I'm dead serious. If you have a "shared interest" let it be something interesting. Bomb an NRA chapter or an abortion clinic. Yes, I'm a bit of a romantic.
Exactly. And people who say apps are crap don't consider different types of people.
A more introverted person can't find people to meet at a club or a bar because they don't want to go to a club or a bar. That's who they are.
Gay people can go to gay bars but even those are rife with straight people now, and usually filled with the "scene" type gays that someone might not be into as well.
As an introverted gay nerd you can meet people organically in person but it's a considerably more difficult.
Why not both? A big part of dating is increasing your opportunities to meet someone.
Plus, asking out strangers is lots of fun. The uncertainty that comes from stepping outside scripted social interactions creates tension. And tension what sexual attraction is made of, if you can remain calm and have fun with it.
And while it doesn't have the highest chance of success, when it lands it creates this feeling of stars crossing. Two strangers make eye contact and are immediately drawn to each other? Who doesn't want that 'how'd you two meet' story?
I don’t dispute that the occurrence you describe is exhilarating — I remember even the hopes of it happening being thrilling, and chatting up a girl I just met was even more exciting. But it’s sad in my humble opinion that it takes a tremendous amount of bravery (and extroversion) for this to work. And not only for the asker — the “recipient” also needs to overcome their own risk aversion too (they could be a creep!)
My point is, if that is the primary way we meet partners, it leaves those with anxiety, and introverts, etc, tragically excluded.
I’m grateful I happened to find my partner before the era of high-effort dating sites dissolved and was replaced with Tinder (etc.) We actually write stuff about ourselves. I bet nobody would swipe the correct direction just based on my face.
Navigating these types of situations is a skill that can be developed. Usually you know if the other person is interested, or if not, a little harmless flirting can suss it out. In a good group, you'll have a few others you can trust, and they can be allies in finding out as well. How you reveal this information is probably more important than whether you reveal it.
I agree that admitting it can be social suicide. But I think that's true only if it is the person's only social group; and it is approached either ham-handedly or if the group in question is relatively petty or immature.
I think it being mutual is the bigger danger. A group is more likely to survive a false start intact than a breakup. If it doesn't work out, people don't even really choose sides. They already know who is going to stay and who is going to go.
Well, yes. Just as you don't develop guitar skills by practicing on stage during a live performance, you don't practice your social skills by asking out the girl in your social group with whom you are infatuated.
Using whichever skill you are trying to develop in low stakes situations.
You can flirt with a large variety of people and the social consequences are pretty low. Thinking about how people respond to it is also free. If it's rejection you fear, say hi to strangers. Some of them will ignore you (or maybe even be bothered). That's rejection. It feels like rejection. But the stakes are so low it's safe and you'll become inoculated to a degree or at least comfortable with it. If you want to get better at asking people out, either roleplay with a friend or ask people out that you find interesting, even (especially) if you don't have a crush on them. Bonus: You might get practice at dating, or just find someone you really like.
I haven't found that to be the case at all. You ask someone out, they're interested or not, you both continue onwards in the group with no hurt feelings.
I have tons of female friends in social groups whom I've asked out. Some had boyfriends or even husbands and we all had a good laugh about it afterwards.
There's very little to asking someone out, you're basically saying "I'd like to get to know you better".
Where it gets messy is when people start hanging out one on one with members of the opposite sex, calling it "friendship" despite having romantic intent, and then confessing feelings.
I can't see how any of this makes sense. There are not a lot more eligible men than there are eligible women. Interest in relationships is not constrained in any way to "guys". I think you have an alignment problem.
Quality is subjective, and even as someone who's only had two pints of alcohol in my entire life a bar encounter seems high quality compared to the modern dating scene.
I'd certainly agree that "the modern dating scene" is dismal, but the average bar does not produce anything I would qualify as "high-quality interaction".
> Developing crushes on people you actually know in your social scenes is more reasonable
You are absolutely correct here, but the primary problem with this is that a combination of sexual harassment statutes, #metoo movements, and generalized "women don't ever want to be approached" zeitgeist has closed this avenue off.
This avenue is generally still available if you follow the two rules, but if you do not, it's over for you.
Church is probably the only exception to this, but with drastically increasing secularization of society, good luck with that.
And where it does exist, it’s usually someone exploiting power and/or access to another person, e.g. superiors in the workplace taking advantage of subordinates, customers being inappropriate to servers and not understanding or caring that it’s their job to serve them and their advances are not welcome, that weird/obsessed guy in your greater friend circle that you never want to be alone with, etc.
Respectful advances in places where both people are on equal footing and there are not external pressures, have never been seen as off limits as far as I am aware.
That's the negative behaviour the movements were trying to address but young men interpreted it as women not wanting to be approached by them at all. That's the message social media is giving.
It's an extreme but a dangerous permanent extreme. It's not like the risk of riding a bike and breaking your leg. Legs heal.vYour reputation doesn't, especially if your hobby or career requires an online presence.
Twitter aside, there is a general post COVID feeling of "coldness" out there in my anecdotal experience. It's kinda always been that way given me being in a big city (or at least, within driving distance of one), but even small talk seems to have diminished these days. Forget women, people in general just seem less interested to wave hello unless you're at a very specific function.
Ha, I haven't dated a woman for 8 years but maybe there is some wisdom here. It can be so hard to wrangle friends together for some casual meetups even if I'm happy to pay for it. It's usually not too bad once we eventually set a date, but if you don't reach out they almost never will. Like, we're talking maybe your most active friend will reach out for a birthday party or outing once every 6 months, pre-COVID. Many just will never reach out period.
The upside of all that is that most men don't usually take it personally. Like, I can throw out a text to someone I haven't seen since college in another state and we chat like old times (you know, minus the 5 years of catching up). So it's not like they ignore people on purpose. I guess life is just busy.
I have no clue how to meet truly NEW freinds though. Meetups are so flaky and a lot of my tech/gaming circle is probably inside anyway. At best I met some closely connected friends that were ex-coworkers I never talked to.
It’s kind of annoying I’m better friends with the moms of my kids friends than I am the dads. The dads want nothing to do with other dads but the moms are friendly and we chat way more. Even the dads that should be a great friend match we just never seem to make time for each other.
All my male friends are either from college or work, and like you said they tend to forget you if you don’t follow up.
The legal and political concepts of sexual harassment come into play in contexts where women can’t just leave (workplace, industry). I don’t think you get fired or sued or arrested for asking someone out at soccer or pottery class or running club. But women might not want to be in environments where that keeps happening, and those groups might develop taboos in order to survive.
Asking out is ok but asking out repeatedly or insisting on any other way may make the venue uncomfortable for both people and thus force one to leave their hobby, friends etc.
Yes, there’s always that. It’s always less risky to not express these things, but there’s a world of difference between the risk of embarrassment that comes with rejection, and losing an entire community. Avoiding catastrophe is a skill, and I think it comes with balancing self-confidence / charisma with learning to take the hint, among other things.
This sounds very incellish. It’s not considered sexual harrasment to politely gauge interest and immediately back off when you see the signs they aren’t interested.
My father asked my mother out 5 times before she said yes. They've now been married for 45 years. Maybe if I tried that kind of perseverance it would work, or maybe the second ask would get me labeled and witch hunted by somebody like you who would then try to ruin my life for it.
You didn't make an exception for school, nor did the comment you replied to. The only exception they cited was church and you didn't add any yourself until now. And why is school an exception to you, but work is not? Both are places people "have to be", places where people go to do something other than flirt and where they might feel trapped in a social situation they can't easily get out of. How is "my coworker asked me out twice but I still have to work with him" different from "my co-student asked me out twice but I still have to go to class with him"?
There's no meaningful difference here, particularly if you're a grad student. But I guess you'll now say that undergrads are allowed to ask somebody twice, but grad students must not ask more than once? Or maybe you'll just insult me and tell me to be miserable quietly like other people in this discussion already have.
Because work places in one place where you must interact with your coworkers to do your job. The bar is a lot lower for what constitutes harassment
There is a certain level of professional conduct that people expect in a professional setting that’s not there in school.
Also, I would be very wary of approaching someone at the gym who was working out. I use to teach at gyms part time when I was single. Women would have to really start the conversation with me before I would make any move.
> a combination of sexual harassment statutes, #metoo movements, and generalized "women don't ever want to be approached" zeitgeist has closed this avenue off.
Wait, what? This reads like the classic boomer complaint that is hard to get to know women when you can't slap their ass in the office any more. "No one can take a joke any more, etc etc"
Women are not a monolithic voting bloc. Some will respond to approaches that repel or bore others. The only way to know is to get to know them as people first and potential romantic partners second. This is why a social scene, or in some cultures, extended clan gatherings, is so important: you see someone in a relaxed setting and can make some assessment of their personality and values. This also means that it takes time. I don't want to say that we should all go back to the weird heteronormative 1950s, but using as many social networks as possible, including unusual ones, is essential.
As an older dude who has seen the games that young men play at work, I understand that the hormonal drive for guys is absolutely saturating, but you will fail and fail again if you think that #metoo stops you. If it did, you were misbehaving to start with.
I would say that you're right in some sense: most women are fine with someone respectfully asking them out. But the tricky part here is that there is a minority of women (say, the most sensitive 10%) who get genuinely upset or feel harassed by an indicator of interest in any given setting. When you're asking people out, you don't know what a particular woman's boundaries are upfront, and if you ask out the wrong woman, it can genuinely mess up your social or professional circles. This applies in friend groups and even if you look for positive indicators of interest: one woman might think giving a lingering hug is her being very explicit about her interest, while another thinks of a hug as obviously purely playonic and reacts very negatively if you take that as an okay to express your own interest.
Dating apps prefilter for "acceptable to indicate interest to" and let you avoid an ambiguous landscape that's impossible to perfectly navigate.
the absolute problem for me personally is the lack of social scene, i don't actually remember the last time i talked to anyone single, even at the few parties i forced myself to go to.
>As an older dude who has seen the games that young men play at work, I understand that the hormonal drive for guys is absolutely saturating, but you will fail and fail again if you think that #metoo stops you. If it did, you were misbehaving to start with.
Quite the contrary. I don't want to misbehave or be construed as misbehaving so I never tried anything at all. You see the most negative examples so of course you won't see the ones who don't want any risks at their workplace and put their head down.
Even on HN you will see a lot of people who hate conversing with coworkers and simply want to clock in and clock out, with no interest in making friends. And I feel that's a minor factor that leads to such behavior.
> Wait, what? This reads like the classic boomer complaint that is hard to get to know women when you can't slap their ass in the office any more. "No one can take a joke any more, etc etc"
No, it's the extremism that's a problem. Men went towards TheRedPill and similar idiots. And especially the younger millennial women and younger have seen this garbage for what it is.
However the pendulum swings to compensate. I've heard recently from quite a few places the old radical quote from 2nd wave "sex is always rape because of patriarchal power imbalance".
I've also slapped precisely 0 butts in the workplace. Nor have I said the usual shitty "women do _" things. But the problem is so many younger generations's women are overly on guard.
Hell, I've had them (at work) ask "don't I look good?", seeking attention. I flatly said that I don't make comments on appearance of men or women.
If I wasn't already with someone, I'd likely be with nobody. It's too toxic out there as a man or someone who presents as a man.
It was pretty much complete luck, on both our sides.
Neither of us were looking for relationships, or sex, or whatever. We've never done any dating apps.
We met literally in the Starbucks line. Conversation started up, we both had time and sat down for coffee. It just went from there. We've been together for 10y.
Would it happen like that or similar again to either of us? Nope. Nor is it repeatable.
Still it gives me a tiny shred of hope and encourages me to just keep stepping outside even when I don't fully feel like it. If there's some chance encounter where I can find a great friend or even a partner, I don't want to squander it being stuck alone in the house if I can help it.
Is it not possible there are multiple extremes at work here? The boomer example you provided is something I think is generally agreeable: it's not acceptable to go around slapping asses (man or woman) in the way you describe.
However, when the (alleged) "victim's" interpretation of something is given as much weight as it is in these laws (and it is--anyone who's had a corporate sexual harassment training course knows this), it greatly increases the risk of even more mundane interactions being reported as harassment. Even if the real rate of reports is tiny (or even unchanged from an era prior to the existence and refinement of these laws), the perception of risk still matters.
>if you think that #metoo stops you. If it did, you were misbehaving to start with.
If you read up on the Richard Stallman #metoo cancelation attempt I'd really like to know how you thought he was misbehaving because from my perspective it was simply used to jeer at and bully somebody vulnerable.
I think it's pretty rational to think that could happen to somebody else.
I could spontaneously combust tomorrow, but I don’t build my life around that. Interacting with people has a risk associated with it. For women, this risk is much higher. For men, now with things like #metoo, the risk has been raised.
If you are out talking with a woman and get weird/bad vibes, politely excuse yourself and stop interacting with them. Don’t dig a deeper hole.
The majority of woman will let you know if they are not interested. Poor social skills does not excuse behavior which makes someone feel unsafe.
>For men, now with things like #metoo, the risk has been raised.
Yes, that was my entire point. The movement didn't only mean that more Weinsteins got what they deserved. It also lowered the bar of what is considered "creepy" and raised the risks of behavior which is perceived as such, whether legitimately or not.
What about the part of his activism where he makes up stupid baby names for everything he doesn't like, shouts at all his colleagues and eats skin off his toes?
The attempts at character assassination are a natural side effect of his profit-hostile activism.
The attacks on his character and the noisy tantrum Google had over AGPL a few years ago (e.g. even banning it from their own version of github for a while) are manifestations of the same desire to see him and his movement nullified.
It's funny because the GPL is not anti-profit, as there's two very natural models for it: one where you sell commercial licenses for people who can't use GPL software, and one where you sell support and development contracts for it.
It isnt anti the concept of profit, it just had the effect of chewing through a lot of profit margins. The GPL was responsible for breaking Microsoft's desktop OS monopoly, for instance.
A watered down FSF run by an inoffensive do-nothing would be a better outcome for big tech than leaving him in charge. Hence the all the attempts to cancel him, including via cynically hijacking #metoo.
Why would you bring that up in relation to " Richard Stallman #metoo cancellation attempt", unless you were trying to insinuate some sort of connection between his "obnoxious antisocial" tendencies and the sexual predator allegations (that is what is meant by "#metoo cancellation attempt")
> I’ve never understood how asking out strangers in bars or on the street is supposed to yield high quality matches.
Plus, I have the feeling that asking out women is considered increasingly rude.
> Developing crushes on people you actually know in your social scenes is more reasonable.
This is certainly an option for people in their 20s, or maybe in very mixed professions with a lot of interactions, but not an option for a lot of us who don't have a rich social life. Plus a lot of people refrain dating people at work.
I still feel dating apps are the best option, even though they don't work for me anymore since I'm past 40.
But it’s human nature that the vast majority of the time it will be one-sided on the guy’s part. So you’ve got to somehow maintain a social scene with enough single women to make even one match plausible for you, while those women are constantly inundated with unwanted attention and feelings from the guys in the group, without the group either splintering or developing social norms that prohibit romantic overtures. That’s asking for some incredibly robust social technology in an era where we should be grateful that any kind of IRL social scene even exists.