> As an example, imagine that you are a moderator on a forum and you suspect that a new face is actually a sockpuppet of a user you banned the day prior. You check the IP logs, and despite using different Mullvad servers, both accounts resolve to the overlapping float ranges 0.4334 - 0.4428 and 0.4358 - 0.4423. This gives you a >99% chance that they are the same person.
This sounds like how I'd design a VPN if I were an intelligence agency.
Why? If I was an intelligence agency and designing a VPN I would simply log all the IPs connecting to my VPN and not rely on statistics on exit nodes to identify the users, even more so because they rely on the users to pick different servers.
One person can tell a lie, but a company consists of many people. You must ensure that only few people know of the logging or there will be a risk of a leak.
Well, there should only be a few people with the access needed to discover logging is happening. Just put the logging configuration in whatever secure configuration management tool is storing your TLS keys and suchlike.
Make it look like an accidental misconfiguration and if an insider who isn't an NSA mole does somehow discover the logging, there's a fair chance they'll turn a blind eye anyway. After all, if you work at a VPN, publicly outing your employer for logging will tank the business, then you and your colleagues will all be out of a job.
Still I think it's easier to avoid the need for more people than necessary. "Just lie" sounds like the easiest solution but on closer inspection maybe it is not?
Because if you lie you get infinitely more data than if you don't lie. And if you lie you can do it completely in secret whereas if you don't lie you get articles like the OP exposing the teeny amount of data you're trying to collect. It makes no sense.
leakers and whistleblowers are extremely rare. History is filled with examples of conspiracies involving many people that went on for long periods of time before one person eventually risked everything and said something. The Tuskegee Experiment went on for like 40 years! If keeping secrets were all that hard none of them would have been allowed to go on as long as they did.
Yeah I'm sure one day it will transpire Cloudflare is affliated with intelligence agencies too. The solution to a "sudden DDoS" is to put their website behind Cloudflare. Wonder who can do those sudden attacks?
That’s been my pet theory from day 1, and not because of DDoS. Simply because they are the SSL terminator for most of the internet and can see anything going on in cleartext (and I’ve seen them protecting some shady stuff)
I recall a PRISM slide showing the diagram of Google and the public internet, with a big arrow on GFE saying, quote, “SSL added and removed here! :-)”
If NSA aren’t installed at Cloudflare, I wonder what they are even doing.
Sorry for necro-replying, but assuming you're talking about cloudflare they already do.
They took down KF (which is hosted in the US, so seemingly to be legal), but have always allowed everything from sites dedicated to livestreaming animal abuse to ISIS-affiliates hosting beheading videos (both which AFAIK is illegal).
Well, we kind of can, given that "SSL added and removed here :-)" was a pretty explicit workaround to the issue of encrypted communications in Google's infrastructure, just not between sites (IIRC).
Either way, if they were directly colluding with Google, they would have had a much simpler time siphoning off that data.
It's within the realm of possibility that NSA is collecting data with Cloudflare's consent. It seems unlikely that Cloudflare would jeopardize their entire business model over it. Unlike other companies in the leaked NSA slides that participated in PRISM, Cloudflare would face a near-total loss of customers. Their entire value proposition is being an unobtrusive traffic intermediary.
Within the realm of possibility? Let's be honest, if you are a top NSA executive and you couldn't find a way to get your hands on Cloudflare's private keys (bribing or threatening the right person), you are not getting your Christmas bonus.
It is of course inconceivable that the NSA do not have the private keys for dozens of browser trusted certificate authorities
That nonetheless doesn't help them unless they are doing active MITM. In order to do that they'd have to have at least some physical presence at Cloudflare or on the path to Cloudflare.
I mean, it is the CIA, but if you encrypt it before it leaves the box, and you're decent good with the key material, how are they going to get at it? Tapping the fiber then gets them encrypted flows, which isn't nothing, but, well, it would be surprising if they had access to the clear text.
Room 641A [1] would be an example of just renting a room in the DC, making it look as boring and nondescript as possible, tap the fiber lines and send a copy of all data to that room
That requires cooperation from a couple people at the company. People that could do it for "patriotic duty", be payed off, simply be coerced, or be replaced by NSA agents (I wonder how many cloudflare employees are NSA plants?). If you want to go even more low-profile, tap the fiber lines a block further down outside the cloudflare PoP and use one of the above techniques to get the key material
Even if it takes the NSA a decade to get an NSA agent hired and moved up in the organization until they have a vector to extract private keys that's still an incredible return on investment
The difference is AT&T didn't publicly make statements that they didn't know about Room 641A and that they weren't helping the NSA. Google's response to PRISM was much more aggressive, and in the wake of the MUSCULAR tapping revelations, Google stepped up their encryption. I haven't worked at Cloudflare but I have worked at Google, so I can't speak to Cloudflare's internal company culture but I can say that Google was not happy about the NSA tapping their fibre.
> Unlike other companies in the leaked NSA slides that participated in PRISM, Cloudflare would face a near-total loss of customers
People didn’t care when they learned about PRISM, why would they care now when it’s a known fact? The sane stance would be to assume Cloudflare is in cahoots with NSA.
All the companies involved in PRISM made public statements saying they ceased participation. Google undertook a costly initiative to add encrypted connections over their datacenter circuits. The NSA leaks were a forcing function that led to a massive uptake of encryption. Up until that point it was common for websites to support only HTTP.
The NSA leaks dominated news cycles for the entirety of 2013.
> All the companies involved in PRISM made public statements saying they ceased participation. Google undertook a costly initiative to add encrypted connections over their datacenter circuits
This is as helpful as Whatsapp's so called E2E encryption comms (that just happens to not be applicable by default in certain situations).
Backups are not encrypted by default. It just takes a single person on the other side of the chat not enabling e2e for your messages to be readable.
Meta data is also not encrypted. Your messaging graph is known to Whatsapp including message timestamps.
Also, IIRC, they (Meta) could also partially bypass the e2e (they can't access past messages but they can receive future messages) without you noticing (unless you have certain settings on whatsapp enabled, settings most people don't even know they exist).
The new feature of sharing past messages with new arrivals to a group also further widens the potential scope of messages leaking.
And it is very difficult to back them up anywhere other than a secret bucket at Google
Also they say messages are E2E encrypted. I don't recall that page saying anything about what happens at rest. Presumably the Meta AI will have, or already has access to them.
but you can also see from curl or traceroute, that the endpoint you talked to was a cloudflare ip and your ssl ended there. after that you can't see inside cloudflare.
Most modern booters are not maintaining public websites that could be the object of DDoS attacks. They're renting residential IP addresses from free VPN users.
Yeah, their origin is a story of absolute incredible luck. Cloudflare came out of nowhere and suddenly massive sites with huge user bases around the world, including places like 4chan, were getting DDoSed. Then they immediately announce that they transitioned to Cloudflare. Hell of a lucky time to make a company that the entire internet suddenly became absolutely dependent on.
The funny thing about that era is you knew they started using Cloudflare because they went from stable with constant uptime to going down and showing a Cloudflare banner randomly all the time for a good year or so. They ran worse with Cloudflare than they did while they were allegedly getting DDoSed. The whole company glows, as the late great HN commenter Terry Davis would've said.
Am i the only one that actually remembers this time period? It wasn’t that long ago. The confidence of your assertion is completely misplaced. I remember exactly where i was when I first read about CF, on launch day. DDoS attacks were CERTAINLY a big issue before Cloudflare came along. A whole lot of script kiddie energy was poured into them. LHC? Slowloris? IRC C2? This wasn’t niche stuff. That’s why I remember the CF launch, because I and everyone else knew that it was a big deal, given what the landscape had been for quite some time. Sorry if you personally didn’t have your finger on the pulse for whatever reason, but this was far from a niche issue, even for big sites / usual targets like 4chan.
I was there and recalled there being occasional script kiddy DDoS attacks here and there. But the uptime when being attacked was still much, much better than the first 1-2 years of actually using Cloudflare.
"I wrote all the code from scratch, including a 20,000 line of code compiler that makes x86_64 machine code from HolyC or Asm and operates AOT and JIT.
My JIT mode is not interpreted. It optimizes and compiles to x86_64 machine code.
I was chosen by God because I am the best programmer on the planet and God boosted my IQ with divine intellect." -Terry A Davis.
Well there is still the small detail of them not storing any logs.
This is a massive issue in my view, it allows correlation across multiple VPNs exit nodes, but that’s it. It doesn’t allow to identify you automatically. It does significantly lower the bars for identifying you though, but the requirements are still high.
Hopefully they fix this soon.
I can’t believe this type of “let’s make it a hash or something sensitive” still happen, and at mullvad, of all places. Why not randomise it simply?
> It does significantly lower the bars for identifying you though, but the requirements are still high
If you squint a bit, it looks a lot like a "Nobody But US" (NOBUS[1]) scheme. A few more identifying bits could tip the scale for party that has a whole host of other bits on a list of suspects, without being useful to most other people.
Then why complicate it by being publicly insecure? If Mullvad were wanting to defeat anonymity, they could simply log the traffic metadata while falsely advertising they aren't.
Their ads on San Francisco's public transit are good.
Good VPNs tout the fact that they had nothing to give in response to a subpoena, or that there was nothing a law enforcement agency to find when they seized a server. For mullvad to be effective as a honey pot it needs to survive these events with its reputation in tact.
Not when people get arrested and the investigative techniques, sources, etc are made public. They would have to intervene in the legal process to make sure mullvad's role was kept secret. Presumably this isn't always feasible across jurisdictions.
There's a real value for no such agency types having something that is secure against "normal" government activity - a subpoena is one thing, and designing something that defeats that gives you a lot of legitimacy.
AI is showing that everything has a weak spot (wondering where are the "I don't make mistakes with C" now people are - but that's for another discussion)
There's another commenter mentioning this makes sense because exactly it avoids them keeping information on which customer is matched to which server. You know, one of the things you don't want to log
The attack surface is far larger than what you specified. Any networking equipment sotting between the client and server(s) can pick up and log IP addresses.
Knowing the online services one uses, and the times (to the millisecond) they used them goes a long way to deanonymize individuals. Correlating Internet routing events is very effective when combined with other data sources, like physical surveillance and knowing the exact times the target got home, or interacted with their phone after getting a DM alert.
The vulnerability enables clustering outgoing Mullvad traffic into user-sized buckets based on metadata analysis alone.
Clustering, in turn, allows time-based deanonymization[1], against the users assumptions of being sufficiently anonymized.
Adversaries who do not enjoy a backbone-traffic MitM vantage point cannot exploit this vulnerability, which makes it appear NOBUS-y.
1. Any *aaS, forum, or board, when given a (Mullvad!) IP address and series of request timestamps, and a subpoena, can yield PII on the real identity (email, phone, billing address)
but, to cluster this traffic, wouldn’t you need equipment between each and every mullvad exit node and each and every server the user access? Or at least a large proportion of it?
IP addresses are metadata - and don't require search warrants, meaning they are fair game for dragnet surveillance. Tapping into a backbone, a la Room 641A, can be used to cross-reference timestamped public posts on an anonymous message board to other data sources (e.g. subpoena Netflix for payer based of Netflix's access logs from VPN exit IPs)
please read the thread again. The parent said “it is not a high bar to own a website where a user is entering personal data”. I strongly disagree, although “high” is obviously not measurable.
Maybe I should again be more specific, again.
high bar for me is, you need to be a state sponsored hacker basically, or a large criminal organisation. Or a single, very skilled and high motivated person maybe.
Mullvad predates the Snowden leaks by several years and was not mentioned anywhere in them.
Sure, there are other intelligence agencies, but that's the one I'd be the most worried about. Since either they run it, or they would know of it and want to emulate the idea, or know of it and have access to it from the partner agency running it. Or they are not a threat to me.
There's also the issue of no publicly known cases where someone that used Mullvad being deanonymized through the VPN but instead being discovered through some other opsec failure. If an intelligence agency has this capability they have been sitting on it for almost 2 decades without making use of the data. Hard to believe.
> Mullvad predates the Snowden leaks by several years and was not mentioned anywhere in them.
Wow, I didn't realize Mullvad was this old! Then again, maybe they weren't popular enough back then for intelligence agencies to target them? For instance, Mullvad kinda rode WireGuard's popularity wave by being the first(?) VPN provider to implement the protocol. Big ads on billboards came even later. So maybe they only became a target in recent years?
Intelligence agencies use parallel construction to disguise their real methods. Further, more sophisticated methods are reserved for bigger targets. Intelligence agencies aren't running around discussing their methods publicly, most intelligence agency work doesn't result in public criminal charges.
In this particular case I'm quite sure it's not the case. Good arguments in the other comments (why not just log more if that's the case), but I also happen to know a little bit about the workings of Mullvad (I live in Gothenburg where they're from...)
I don't understand your logic. If you are an intelligence agency who controls a VPN, you can just directly monitor the traffic yourself. You have no incentive to make it easier for external observers to guess which users are coming out of which exit IP addresses.
Every now and then there are articles like this one about something that Mullvad may or may not be able to do better, and there are always comments about whether they're an intelligence front.
I don't know the answer, but there are two ways to take it:
1. Submarining to destroy confidence in an actually trustworthy, decent VPN company
2. They're an intelligence front.
For me, Mullvad have the appearance of the greatest likelihood of being legit since they're not aggressively pushing their product with lies and fear mongering. That gels with my vibe. If they're an intelligence front, well, most VPNs probably are as well, so I'm no worse off.
Luckily I'm not doing anything that would get me in the kind of trouble for which multi-jurisdictional cooperation is worthwhile.
You'll find comments accusing anything of being an intelligence front on internet message boards. I agree with you that public evidence is overwhelmingly in favor that Mullvad is earnestly trying to protect privacy.
This sounds like how I'd design a VPN if I were an intelligence agency.