You know, though, his conduct nowadays isn't really that bad; I don't think I'd be bothered by it in a workplace environment. He makes strong assertions, but not mean-spirited, and I think Linus has a lot of reasons to feel highly confident when he makes strong assertions when it comes to Linux.
Of course, there are some moments, but almost everybody has their moments. When push comes to shove, Linus seems to handle the important things pretty well.
I read it and it seemed alright to me. A bit firm yes, but damn are there times when I wish people would have communicate with me with this level of honesty about how they're feeling regarding something. In some places, people have communicated with me with that level of honesty. It does require you to make sure you're not taking things personally when they're not meant to be, but it's a lot better than people trading subtle cues all the time, which seems to just lead to more explosive issues later on when things inevitably hit a breaking point.
Where do you really feel this message goes too far?
Some folks need more carrot, some need more stick. I don’t know the actors in this play, but I assume Linus (who presumably does have a mental map for these actors) is choosing to strike a tone which gets the message across without causing lasting damage.
Perhaps GP carries with them Linus’ priors resulting in a different reading of this specific message.
I think there’s any number of ways to reword that without using passive aggressive remarks and accusing other people of venting when you’ve been driven to venting in response. Something as simple as “keep your venting off the mailing lists in future” is short to the point and gets the same message across without resorting to personal insults.
Could certainly be less confrontational, but in this case, it doesn't really feel so unwarranted, in large part because coming from Linus regarding the Rust for Linux project, a stronger expression of frustration feels justifiable. It's a lot different than the real-life "toxic" communication I've witnessed, where the harshness is strictly one-sided and feels unjustifiable.
But I guess the line will be up to taste. I've been on the receiving end of harsher communication that I don't feel was completely uncalled for, too. I certainly can be a stubborn person and sometimes reasonable communication just isn't getting the message across. On the other hand, there are people who basically never do anything to warrant being communicated to like this. It would be ideal if everyone could communicate calmly and always get the message across, but frankly it just doesn't seem to work that way.
I disagree - the harshness here is personal insults and passive-aggressiveness. That's uncalled for and definitely "toxic".
It's very possible to be assertive and shut down unconstructive discussions, as Linus has repeatedly shown. Here [0] is a great example of Linus being firm, assertive, calling someone out on their shit.
I really regret the proliferation of terms like "toxic" to describe things as benign as this. I think it's literally recoloring people's perception of what bad communication actually looks like.
You brought the word up, not me. The tiles are simple - avoid character attacks, and don’t be passive aggressive. Be direct and firm.
Otherwise people will go off topic and take whatever meaning they want (like I did with Linus’) comment and you did the same with the word toxic, which you introduced
I agree with my sibling commentors, but I want to point out for people who do not go read the comment: this is not the off the walls Linus rant of the past.
This is a very even-handed response where Linus tells people to calm down, that the purpose of linux-next is to discover problems, and that Rust is not causing all of the problems.
At the very end there is a sentence or two that might be offensive, especially if you have a thin skin or aren't reflective about your own responses, but this is in no way akin to the bombs of the past.
I don’t think saying “he used to be worse” is a good defence. Has he gotten better? Yes. Is his email gone professional? No.
I think you’re wrong about the end, it’s an unnecessary personal attack that’s only purpose is to insult and/or to make Linus feel better. If you remove the last two or three paragraphs it’s a perfectly fine constructive response. With them, it’s a shitty, unnecessary escalation.
I don't think a "he used to be worse" defense is a takeaway from the above. The comment mentions the past to highlight it's not like previous rants people may assume it might be like to encourage giving it a read. Separate explanations were offered for why they believe the message was a reasonable response in its own light.
I agree the last 2-3 paragraphs could be better but I disagree that's the bar for what's professional, let alone what is reasonable to stand out out of a month's worth of emails. It's also hard to square that message being so horrible by nature of being shitty and just to make Linus feel better - to me, these are more pointed and more personally directed statements than the supposedly problematic discourse they're about (though still relatively mild overall).
We aren't all perfect in communication all the time, even the most ideal professionals. A large part of good discourse is accepting reasonable amounts of people being human and de-escalating smaller perceived slights naturally before declaring the conversation can't be stood for. Jumping at the latter can cause well meaning and well received folks to feel bullied, which is the exact opposite to the goal of trying to keep a professional air to discussion. Hell, some of the times I've been more colorfully told to look in the mirror were the best things which could have been said to me at the time (even if they might not be reasonable things to have heard at other times).
> We aren't all perfect in communication all the time, even the most ideal professionals. A large part of good discourse is accepting reasonable amounts of people being human and de-escalating smaller perceived slights naturally before declaring the conversation can't be stood for.
Do you not rink its fair to say that Linus has a track record of provoking that sort of behaviour?
I interpret the question as asking if I believe Linus has a track record of provoking escalating style behavior, if that's incorrect then ignore the following to re-ask and maybe I'll read it correctly the second time it's phrased :).
I'd disagree with that as his track record, though you won't find me claiming he is the perfect/ideal/flawless role model in that regard either. In my opinion, overall, he has reasonable and professional track record across the board these last few years (anything prior to that doesn't set the track record in my book). Especially if you read his emails regularly, not just the most popular ones about the most charged discussions he's asked to enter into. If you'd asked me the same question 10 years ago I'd've given a very different answer.
> Do you not rink its fair to say that Linus has a track record of provoking that sort of behaviour?
It's true that reporting on Linus' emails has a track record of only highlighting the rudest ones, creating this impression in your mind. Anything else is speculation.
> Do you not rink its fair to say that Linus has a track record of provoking that sort of behaviour?
Your point about Linus's behaviour are correct in some sense: other people would make the same point less aggressively. But you aren't making any attempt to balance the scales.
There isn't some other version of Linus lying on the shelf that has the technical decision making record he does, and is also a great diplomat. So the choices are: keep the flawed but highly talented man we have, or discard Linus for someone else who almost certainly will be worse technically, but may be a better wordsmith.
I'd wager most of the people here have jobs that depend on Linus's technical skills. That's certainly true of most people whose day jobs are working on the kernel. They've made their choice, and it's the obvious one. They'll take the man that abuses them for their mistakes over a silver tongued Mr average.
If you don't like that, go and work on your own kernel for Mr average. But if you take that route, be prepared for the fact that no one is going to want to use your kernel because, well, it's average.
Linus is perfectly capable of making the same point less aggressively, he's done so on the same topic [0].
> So the choices are: keep the flawed but highly talented man we have, or discard Linus for someone else who almost certainly will be worse technically, but may be a better wordsmith.
I don't think that's true. There's always other options.
Is it worth making absolutist assertions about such a relative topic? Offence is taken as much as it's given, and everyone has a different thickness of skin in these matters.
What's your problem with this email? I would expect this kind of constructive criticism from any team lead with a functioning brain and without a yes-man attitude.
That was a very calm and well-written e-mail, and an impressively mature way to decisively take a position on a technical issue that's controversial within the team. The only note I have is that adding "or is the problem between the keyboard and the chair, and you just want to vent" at the end was unnecessary, but it's not necessarily even wrong.
For someone in the games industry, you have an exceptionally thin skin and must have not been in many high stakes crises if the last two sentences bother you so much.
I don’t see how you can take away that they bother me so much and I must have a thin skin. If I saw them in a work email I’d ignore them and move on. If one of my direct reports sent that to a coworker I’d take them to the side and remind them to not be a dick .
It’s perfectly possible to be firm and direct without insulting people.
What? There was literally nothing wrong with that message - including the final sentence. He's calling for everyone to self-reflect and have humility - only someone profoundly lacking in it could be bothered by a message like this
Is he? or is he venting at someone while accusing them of doing the same thing back.
If instead of "Is the problem actually the rust code causing you issue, or is the problem between the keyboard and the chair, and you just want to vent?"
he said "Is the problem actually the rust code causing you issue, or do you just want to vent?" it's perfectly acceptable. The snide insults are petty, unprofessional, and unnecessary.
> only someone profoundly lacking in it could be bothered by a message like this
I could just as easily say that anyone who doesn't see that should look in a mirror and see if the see an ass staring back at them, but I wouldn't. When I read this, I see someone blowing off steam and knowing they can get away with it. I respect linus, and as I've said elsewhere he's perfectly capable of handling himself without resorting to passive aggressive insults.
Of course it could have been written more diplomatically. Yet, many people clearly don't find it to be offensive/inappropriate - especially when viewed in the context of the entire post, which was very well written and diplomatic.
Moreover, I can very much see how those precise words could be said verbally, in person, in a completely disarming, effective manner - by using particular pacing, tone, gestures, a wink, etc. Whether Linus would do that is another matter - but your comment was talking about how it would be inappropriate anywhere.
He is good herding cats. Sometimes you need a genius that can do incredible difficult stuff. Sometimes you need someone that is just very good and know how to avoid stupid stuff. Sometimes you need someone that is very good mixing technical and no technical decitions.
Other projects have been forked, abandoned, kidnaped by the adult supervision, lost all user due to backward incompatible changes, ... The mantainer of an open source project has no moat. Linus only onws the name, but anyone can make a fork and try to make a better job.
Of course, there are some moments, but almost everybody has their moments. When push comes to shove, Linus seems to handle the important things pretty well.