I have a model 3 (from 2023), that is rated 270 miles. I can get at max 120 miles, more like 90 miles from it. My drive to work involves going steeply uphill, not very cold. The only reason I don’t care is I have free office charging. If I didn’t I would be pissed by the range I observe.
Also Tesla servicing is famously bad, and the way the employees treat service requests (as described in the article) explains a lot
Slightly more nuanced: the "range"/battery level listed constantly is always bunk. When I enter a destination the final battery level is very accurate. This counts in cold weather or hot, with terrain effects or not. Sometimes even weather. It's quite good and I imagine there's some data driven process from past performance of the vehicle.
So, if you plan to test drive a Tesla, evaluate its range this way. If you're curious for me the listed range is often around 300, and the effective drive range tends to be around 250 200, seldom less except in cold weather.
Our BMW i3 gets EPA range on my round trip commute in the summer. It starts at the top of a mountain with a “100%” (actually 90% according to reverse engineering) battery (a tesla couldn’t regen in that situation, the bmw can).
It can be as low as 80% of EPA range with the heat pump cranked up in low 30F’s weather.
I’ve carefully measured two other EVs (not Tesla) on that route. One gets 110% of EPA, but can’t regen at 100% (so, it is similar to the BMW model without the hard 90% charge cap). The other gets EPA in the winter and does not have a heat pump.
FWIW, Tesla drivers that live up here complain about bogus range estimates.
I agree with the “type in destination and let the computer estimate” approach. That works well on all three cars, despite the mountains.
> It starts at the top of a mountain with a “100%” (actually 90% according to reverse engineering) battery (a tesla couldn’t regen in that situation, the bmw can).
Ah so BMW advertises (and charges to I assume?) 10% less capacity than actual, which both reduces wear and allows regen even on full battery?
That's actually pretty cool. They're effectively sacrificing marketing for user experience.
My "compliance car" cheapo Ford Focus EV had about 5% over-provisioning. It realistically got its range estimate for the past 7 years except in winter which reduced the range about 20%. It's starting to lose range now on year 8.
Many non-Teslas are also over-provisioned (my 2nd EV is as well based on YT testing videos).
It's not that great for a solution. You can set the 90% in other cars too. With the extra benefit of being able to use 100% when you occasionally want to.
That has to be an option, which you need to know exists, and actively use.
Hell, bmw could expose that exact same setting the other way around, and maybe they do. But defaults are important, and from a UX perspective I think they have the better one.
Getting only 30% of the advertised range would be very unlikely unless you always drive uphill and in the cold. I've had a Model 3 and a Model Y, and would get at least 80-85% of the advertised range in average California weather.
If they were traveling uphill to work you’d think they would gain some of that back coming back downhill. But I’m guessing it might be very hilly terrain where the roads are not level at all. The crazier thing is that their commute is 60+ miles one way (based on saying they are lucky they can charge at work).
Looking at Tessie, my Model Y's lifetime average is 83% (289 Wh/mi at ~40,000 miles) and my Model 3's average is also 83% (280 Wh/mi at ~53,000 miles).
Most of my driving is in the Washington/PNW, so a bit more hilly and colder than California.
If the gradient is steep enough then you would not be recouping most of the energy going back downhill because your brakes will be burning off the energy. Uphill and downhills is a combination where the estimated range might be thrown off entirely, depending on situation.
Regardless, even with a small gradient, the kinetic energy can never need 100% converted back into stored energy into the battery. There will always be a loss.
It'd have to be really steep. Regenerative braking on a model 3 is pretty aggressive. You don't even use the brakes in normal driving. If you're starting off too cold that can be an issue though. I've driven in big mountains (Canada, BC) and while you're definitely using a lot more power on your way up you make up for it on the other side. I have worried about not making it to the top though (but it worked out fine for my trips).
Had a recent talk with a colleague who owns one of earlier model S on exactly this. He often goes skiing up to Verbier in the Swiss alps, so similar situation and cold.
He definitely burns through the battery much quicker in mountains, and going down it recoups just a small fraction of energy spent going up. Also cold messes up the numbers pretty significantly, I think he mentioned 10-15% of battery consumed standing still each full day in freezing temperatures (he told me battery keeps itself warm).
Pushing up 1,5 tonnes (or 2+ in tesla's case) of our ICE car can burn up any fuel very fast in relatively short distance. I've estimated that our current petrol and previous (otherwise very efficient) diesel burn around 1/4 to 1/3 of the fuel tank on each 1000m of altitude gained.
I don't own a Tesla, let alone a car. What is "servicing" for a car? You go to the dealer when something is wrong/broken? Or do you call Tesla?
Also, can you give a specific example of how Tesla servicing is "famously bad"? (I'm not doubting, but it will help me to better understand your comment.)
I sold my Tesla after 4 years, because I refused to own it out of warranty. No longer being associated with Musk is a bonus.
During the 4 years, it needed servicing (for actual faults, not for maintenance) 13 times.
4 of those times were "Car is dead" and it had to be towed.
To book service, you have to use the app. There's no phone number. You pick a date which is usually at least a week in advance, type in what's wrong, maybe attach a photo.
First, you'll get a reply in app's "chat" feature that your problem is actually normal, or it's somehow your fault, and it's not something they can fix.
After you've convinced them it's a real problem, your appointment comes around, and you take it into your service center, and wait about 30 minutes for someone to get around to seeing you. They repeat the previous message that it's your fault, or normal, etc. etc.
When they finally take it, there's zero feedback as to what's going on. In theory, you should get a loaner car while they repair, but they are usually "out".
3-14 days later, if you are lucky, your car is ready for pickup. No-one will be there to help you collect it, you just have to find it in the parking lot.
There's about a 50/50 chance of your problem being fixed, and 100% chance that they've added a couple of new ones. Your car will be filthy, inside and out, and need to be cleaned.
They also offer "mobile service" which is basically the same except they are rude to you in your driveway instead of at the service center.
Worst experience of any car. By far. Will never buy another one.
In Geneva, Switzerland they simply dont give replacement cars as per colleague's recent visit. And of course they are in the middle of nowhere, impractical for ie going to work adterwards.
Thats a very shitty service, even cheapest noname garages give replacements
I've come to think of cars, and maybe other big purchases, as you're purchasing a culture; the company that made it and will service it - it's why Toyota is so highly regarded. I own a 20yo Toyota Tacoma - and it's making more frequent shop visits now; and there are some good independent shops, but the Toyota guys really do a good job and over-communicate what's going on when they have your vehicle. You also have a person who handles you through the entire process - it's a great experience.
Tesla culture is the opposite - buy the care and go away please.
The first time I got a Toyota, I brought it for regular maintenance and they cleaned my car at the end. I was shocked because I never experienced this before, but the technician told me it was free and standard procedure.
At least they understood that if you see clean cars around you when you drive, you're more likely to buy the brand later, and keep happy clients.
Many dealership service centers have gone to great lengths to buck the stereotype they had acquired and have realized how a good experience with the service side of the business helps feed back into the sales side of the business.
I’m also a data point for excellent Toyota service from the dealership where we bought our Prius. From the concierge who holds your hand throughout the visit, to the free lunch voucher in their pleasant little cafeteria (sadly, closed after covid), to the couple of years of free oil changes, I actually looked forward to bringing the car in. And they cleaned it as well, a quick interior vacuum at least.
When my Audi is serviced, I actually get a video from the dealer made by the tech working on the car who walks around it and actually shows the issue, and talks about what they are doing for it.
I went to regular maintenance at Toyota, air filter and oil change and they inspected the chassis and sent me a video.
It was bit more expensive than normal shop, but very good service.
To be fair i don’t think there is a business where I can make an appointment in the same week.
I have ICE and getting basic oil change must be week in advance even when I call, I never get “we can book you tomorrow”.
Heck gettin haircut in my area they have calendars blocked so you have to plan with a week in advance. Super annoying as I have a simple cut and most of time it can be done in 15mins. Ok washing down cut hair is useful so maybe 18mins.
But I get frustrated I cannot just walk in, hotels, restaurants, hairdressers.
At lest ordering food online is usually an hour so no need to wait a week
AAA is exactly that business: call-out roadside assistance for flat/dead batteries, breakdowns, tows etc. They have 65 million members in North America. Response time varies greatly by day/time-of-day/your location/dispatching company, traffic but typically < 1.5-2h. https://mwg.aaa.com/ (And T-Mobile was even giving free AAA membership in 2024.)
Basic oil change is typically while-you-wait in non-peak hours; where on earth do you live? some 'services desert'?
I've even gotten while-you-wait smog testing done within 45min out-the-door.
I am not sure where you live but in most of America you can get an ICE vehicle serviced in minutes. I always go through one of those express oil changes, usually they get me all setup 10 mins once I roll in, don’t even have to get out of the car.
Last time I went to one of those, they managed to overfill my oil by two full quarts and it was leaking oil while parked in my garage. I’m hesitant to go back. The auto shop I prefer, that has employees I trust, mostly does “real repairs” and is booked out months in advance. There are tire places around here that offer oil change services as well. They are typically booked out a week or so. I mostly change my own oil as a result and only have the shops do it when I have other work lined up as well.
I own a 2006 lx470, and a 2002 ls430. I own old cars. If I have a problem, and I want maximum convenience, I can drop the car off at the dealership pretty much whenever I want and they set me up with a nice loaner for the entire duration of the repair. I can do this whenever I want, without any scheduling headaches. But I have to pay the dealership premium for this experience.
If I want to be more cost effective, I call my local repair shop and they usually have me sorted within the week.
Out of curiosity, where do you get your oil change done?
The local mechanic here can do it the same day, and they're next to a restaurant. Last time I did an oil change and tire rotation I just grabbed lunch while they worked on it.
The dealership for my car is perpetually booked though, and my experience reflects what you mentioned.
I had an issue with my Toyota where it was making a really loud rattling noise before a big drive I had planned the next day - called a local garage and dropped it off an hour later, got it back end of the day.
You live in an extremely atypical place that doesn't generalize at all to the rest of the US. I've never lived in or visited an American city where I couldn't get something basic like an oil change or haircut with no notice. If one place is busy, go a half mile to the next place and they will probably have time for you. Is this post just a humble brag about how you live in Manhattan or some other expensive outlier location?
>>To be fair i don’t think there is a business where I can make an appointment in the same week.
....where do you live where that's true??? I just checked with my local Volvo garage - I can get an appointment tomorrow. Checked with our local Volkswagen garage - I can get an appointment on Wednesday. And all the big name "express service" chains like Kwik-Fit or ATS will see you while you wait. That's literally their entire business model.
>>Heck gettin haircut in my area they have calendars blocked so you have to plan with a week in advance.
Again, where the hell do you live. I know my wife has to book a hairdresser because she usually spends 4 hours in there, but I have never in my life had to book a haircut, you pop over, wait 15 minutes max, maybe 20 if it's busy and you get a haircut.
For comparision with Tesla, with my little 15 year old clio it's like this:
1. There is mandatory service with technical exam yearly. Few days before it I call my mechanic, drive car to him, then pick it up next day. He changes the oil, brake pads if they are getting bad, tightens a few nuts. Usually I pay less than 100€ for that, but price varies heavily by car model/mechanic/location.
2. I go change the wheels before and after winter (we have to use separate ones for summer and winter there due to snow). Again, I call the mechanic, drive the car to him same day, chat for 15min, then he is finished. Around 120€ if I need new wheels, just 40€ if previous season ones are still good.
Every so often a bit bigger service is needed (if exhaust needs to be replaced or something else). In this case the car stays at mechanic over weekend, maybe max 4-5 days if he needs to order parts he doesn't have in stock.
Average it's less than 400€ yearly and less than a week of downtime in total per year.
Servicing normally means you take your car in annually to check it over for any problems that have developed.
In most countries you have a mandatory safety check. Here in the UK it’s called an MOT and it is annual. It will check things like tyre tread depth, whether the windscreen wash is aimed at the windscreen, steering, suspension, brake pads, brake disks, condition of seatbelts.
Normally people try and service their car at the same time. The service typically will include things like oil changes and oil filter changes and air filter changes.
I have a model 3 from 2019 that is not quite as extreme, but gets similar issues. It should have 350 km of range. I see some people posting insane wh/km numbers, but I think I'm doing a pretty decent job (130-140 wh/km or ~225.31 wh/mile average outside of the winter); I barely get 270-280km, max.
The issue isn't the driving range, but rather the unexplained loss of range. I'm talking about losses of 7.5% if I leave it parked in front of my house for an hour or two. I have photos too; if you reach out to Tesla, they curtly tell me the battery is fine.
A vague "you need to keep your car plugged in" is frankly insane, what if I went on a 100km trip, left my car outside for an hour or two, and came back without enough range to go home? I've heard people say to disable the app on my phone, but that frankly seems like a Tesla problem, not a "me" problem.
I still enjoy driving the car. I just wouldn't trust it for long range driving. I probably will buy Hyundai or BYD (if Canada lets them in) next time.
Tip: if you turn off both the overheat protection and sentry mode, the phantom drain becomes 0%. I know this because I left my car idle for 2 months and it only lost 1% during that time.
It is fine to turn these off, other cars don't even have these and they are fine.
I live in Calgary, overheat protection is only needed in one month in summer ;) I also installed the sun screen, the glass roof had a stress fracture and I didn't want to pay the $2k to fix it.
Yes, I think that's a definite issue for the generation of Model 3 that I have. I had to disable sentry because it was taking a significant chunk too (and I didn't even bother putting a disk inside).
While the idle draw is relatively high on Teslas compared to other EVs (even without sentry mode enabled), 7.5% is quite high. I track my stats with Teslamate and it estimates typical SoC loss of 1% over a day.
What I have seen is that the BMS may update its SoC estimate after driving, and I've seen it adjust the estimated SoC up or down by as much as 5% in some cases.
I get that from a planning perspective, it still stinks to have range than you thought you did an hour ago, but it's not all that different from the variation you might get with an analog dial on the gas tank, just that it's much easier to notice and track when it's digital and showed as a precise number.
5% to 7% is pretty normal for me - in both summer and winter. This is just leaving the car in front of my house for a few hours (let's say I don't want to park it in the separate garage).
It's not the end of the world for driving around town with less than my whole family (which is 90% of my driving) but it's definitely annoying to come back to a car with 50% charge and see it with 43. I imagine it would be terrifying for a 20 -> 13, especially with the lack of supercharging infrastructure where I live (Calgary).
Huh, that's quite a bit more than I would expect. You already ruled out the 12V battery in the other thread, but there could be some other factors that would keep your car awake.
Does it only happen when you park in front of the garage at home, or does it also happen if you go out somewhere? For example, it might be struggling to connect to your WiFi at home (if you set it up with your home WiFi credentials) to download updates or upload telemetry, which would keep it awake longer than normal as it tries to make do with kilobits per second of usable bandwidth.
The issues do happen a lot in front of my house (which has very poor cell phone coverage). I've had lessor drops elsewhere.
I was wondering about the wifi myself too. I don't have wifi in front of the house and I didn't configure wifi either; I've actually installed wifi in my garage and left the car inside to see and I would get similar power losses.
I wonder if there is (a) a battery warming issue or (b) an issue because my phone w/ the Tesla app & bluetooth on is too close to the car, leading to it not going into standby mode? I don't think it is the former because it would be categorised differently (and it would not happen in summer). Turning off bluetooth on my phone everytime I come inside is honestly a bit insane and I would put that in the "It's a Tesla App problem"; but I don't hear about that issue from other drivers.
The real unfortunate part is that there is no way for me to get this diagnosed. It's been a problem since I bought the car, but it seems to be getting worse over time.
I’ve only seen an EV do that once. The 12V battery died about a week later. (Or, rather, I left it parked, and after pouring 10% (!!) of the high voltage battery into the 12V, it gave up and completely shut down.)
Anyway, I wonder if Tesla’s are missing the “if 12V is completely shot, give up” logic. Replacing it is cheap and might fix the car. Some models let you monitor the 12V charger with an OBD-II dongle.
My M3 was parked for 3 months and went from 80% to 60% which I'm perfectly happy with. Just arrived home, got back in it and drove. It was on WiFi, no sentry, and checked in on it only every 3 weeks or so.
There might not actually be a downhill return trip if the commute involves going over a bunch of hills as is common in a pretty well known city that both has a lot of teslas and fits the parent's description.
Of course, this is from Tesla, and they famously puff up everything.. but I would expect even if not as good as claimed here, for the downhill part to certainly help a lot still.
What may not help is if they fully charge at work and have no battery capacity to soak up the regen on the way home. Regen ability gets limited the closer you get to 100%.
Neither are Teslas, but our cars range from getting 10%-33% back when going back down a mountain (curves, no traffic, avoiding using the brake pads or switching between charge/discharge on the throttle).
The results they report are incomparable for two reasons:
- straight line steep mountain roads don’t exist. On curvy roads (like mine) they’d need to repeatedly round trip energy to and from the battery, and that’s going to eat about 5% each time.
- the article claims going up and down the mountain uses as much energy as driving one mile. During the ascend/descend they drive 500 miles. The wind resistance for one mile flat and one mile on the mountain should be comparable, so their 95% efficiency number must be subtracting that (and rolling resistance) out.
So I lose around 20% when going uphill to office. and I lose 10% when going downhill back home, clearly downhill is much better, but it’s not like I get back charge
> I have a model 3 (from 2023), that is rated 270 miles. I can get at max 120 miles, more like 90 miles from it. My drive to work involves going steeply uphill, not very cold. The only reason I don’t care is I have free office charging. If I didn’t I would be pissed by the range I observe.
Were you mislead about or unaware of the range claims when you bought the car?
I don't own an EV or have any real interest in them, but I know the range is highly dependent on driving conditions and automobile condition (often to a much greater degree than ICE vehicles) and I'd assumed that was made pretty clear in advertising materials and sales pitch. I could easily see unscrupulous companies and salesmen or just unaware 2nd hand buyers being caught out by the range claims though.
> I'd assumed that was made pretty clear in advertising materials
On all advertising marerials for cars (ICE or EV) i have seen only: consumption may vary with driving conditions.
That's all.
How much they vary, is left as an exercise for the reader.
The 270 actually 120 is a bit dramatic, but it does highlight a lot of the fundamental problems with range in EVs, especially the "200 miles is enough" crowd.
1) for battery preservation, you generally do not fully charge every night. So, lose 10% from that
2) battery degradation, things are better, but 10% max loss is common I would say
3) people drive faster than testing. Knock off about 10% for that
4) cold? hot? AC? heat? another 10% off
5) there isn't a charger around every corner, so you have to plan ahead and to be safe get a charger when you're at like ... 10% left
Holy crap, 50% loss of range! And if you are in a scenario where you are recharging on the road, you are doing the "80% charge" which really is a loss of 10-20% more effective range. Ok, the poster isn't being that dramatic.
This is why for non-city non-commuter scenarios, especially in midwest/rural areas, a PHEV with a 50 mile all-electric range would simnply be a far better car, for far less battery supply. Daily city driving rarely exceeds 50%, the engine can do range extension on the rare long distance trips, and it can also help with heat/cooling that heat pumps can't help with. PHEV drivetrains will still have regen, peppy acceleration, and good torque if done correctly.
I'm hoping the Dodge Ramcharger does really well. 100 miles almost in all-electric, and an engine to recharge it for really long ranges and towing capacity.
A truly peer range EV will probably need another 50% density, so
I've done road trips on my SR+ model 3 and it hasn't been a big problem. What is a problem is if you're going somewhere that has no chargers (or no superchargers).
If you have a big trip then you can charge to 100% if you need to.
Yes, if you go faster you'll use more energy per km. If you're pushing it then you're going to want to slow down a little.
In my "daily" driving I use about 20%-30% of capacity max and I have a pretty long commute. I tend to keep my battery around 50% most of the time and not go too low or too high.
There are certainly trips to remote places that I can't do with my EV and I have made some adjustments to trip plans to accommodate but all in all it's been a non-issue.
Btw, if we're running down a list of issues then phantom drain is another one. I do worry about energy loss when camping e.g. I've had a situation where I got to the campground with ~20% and the next day in the cold was something like ~10% and barely made it to the charger.
My Polestar 2 range is not great in the cold and on hills, but the real gotcha is charging it to 80% and then plugging in around 30%. Using about 42 kW / 100 U.S. mile that means 50% of a roughly 75 kW battery only gives me 89 miles between charges. (But some of that is self imposed.)
Still 180 mile range would be well under the advertised 260.
Now if I use 100% and I get closer to 35 kW / 100 miles in the summer, the range is about 215 miles. Curious how much better it'll be in the summer though.
Sorry, but this is hard to believe unless your specific Model 3 has a problem.
I have a Model Y, several friends have Teslas, one uses his Model 3 for Uber. Everyone can get the expected range when doing 90 km/h in the summer, and at least half of the range on the highway in the winter, but usually more than that.
Maybe your consumption is that much when going steeply uphill, but then you will have to come back down and your consumption will be negative as it will recharge your battery.
> Electric cars being much, much heavier than petrol cars
This is one of those comments that continues to come up but has never added up. Certainly if you are comparing a Tesla compared to a compact or a Euro version of a compact. Absolutely there is a weight difference. The problem is if you did a like for like comparison..a Model Y is the same Weight as an X3. A Model 3 is a couple hundred pounds heavier than a Toyota Camry.
Comes mostly from comparing interiors in my experience. A camry has a full interior and is still ~400lbs lighter. If you compare minimal interior to minimal interior you're getting into Dacia with extra dynamat territory (can't think of a largeish stock ICE with good sound deadening and minimal interior) which is safe <1500kg. A Jogger is apparently 1261 kg kerb.
Difference between a petrol and electric Volvo XC40 is about 200KGs, so not insignificant but not as much as it's sometimes portrayed. EVs built from the ground-up may be able to knock a few of those KGs off too as they won't have structures designed for ICE components.
According to carsized.com an ICE Volvo XC40 (not sure whether that's a plug-in hybrid, probably not) weighs 1580 kg, while the BEV one weighs 2040 kg. That's a difference of almost 500 kg. The BEV weighs almost 30% more, that seems pretty significant to me.
You’re right but the difference isn’t as big as from the advertised 270 to 90-120. Also electric cars suffer from battery degradation which hampers the range quite a bit.
I don't think batteries degrade that much that fast. I would imagine it's akin to gas cars, where you lose about 10% or so in efficiency after you put on a lot of miles, like 100k. (My EV6 seems to be as efficient as when I bought it in 2022, but my driving style is all over the place, so it's hard to measure from one charge to the next if I'm feeling a bit spirited in my driving that day)
Also Tesla servicing is famously bad, and the way the employees treat service requests (as described in the article) explains a lot