Regarding your sources:

One has to do with self-esteem, which has nothing to do with whether it is pro-social or beneficial, just that some types of shame harm self-esteem, which was never contested.

The second study is about criminal populations, and I specifically mentioned that shame is about self-policing, and that obviously didn't work if someone is incarcerated for a crime.

Did you read them? If your goal is to effect change, hurting people's self esteem is a negative effect that is entirely unnecessary to change.

And criminals aren't some ungovernable animals...

> If your goal is to effect change, hurting people's self esteem is a negative effect that is entirely unnecessary to change.

Yes, your self esteem will likely be harmed if you do something bad and it gets found out.

> And criminals aren't some ungovernable animals...

?

I'm confused too. People live inside such safe spaces now. The thought of a negative emotion is to be avoided at all costs.

Shame makes people feel bad, so we must do all we can do avoid making anyone feel that.

What's next? Is "disappointment" next? Having someone disappointed in you feels bad, therefore no one can ever show disappointment to others?

You’re confused about how shame could make someone unproductive? How shame could drive a behavior underground rather than eliminate it, thus exacerbating the issue rather than reducing it?

As you are demonstrating, shame is more about causing pain than changing behavior. You seem to want to hurt people, and that’s one reason why shame is not effective. You don’t care that equally or more effective means exist for improving behavior.

It isn't letting me reply to you above because it locks down comment chains that get replied to quickly to avoid flame wars, so I will reply here and be done.

> So you admit that shame can be bad? Then you’re close. Next you need to realize that shame’s effectiveness is dependent on a person feeling shame the way you want them to. But that’s not how it actually works, is it? Instead, shame is sourced from the judgements of others, so one way of effectively mitigating shame is to hide the behavior from others, rather than stopping it. So shame is ineffective.

I never claimed that shame couldn't be bad -- I said it is essential for society to function properly. I cited two studies which demonstrated that shame can be prosocial and beneficial depending on circumstances.

> And I’m not being silly. You tried to dismiss the legitimacy of my citation by dismissing an entire category of people. That was inconsiderate.

I dismissed your studies because they were both irrelevant to my point and did not contradict anything I cited. If you feel that I am othering prisoners because I said that the situation of the people in the study made it useless to make your point, then I object to that and say that you are grasping at straws since you have no reasonable argument otherwise.

Look, you have every right to be absolutely wrong in this case, so don't bother changing your mind or looking at my actual standing on the issue and instead imagine I am some kind of meany pants who wants people to feel bad if you want, but I am done with this conversation.

That’s not how HN works, individuals are slowed by IP, there is no “slow a specific conversation”, but thanks for making it clear you’ve been flagged by dang as a troll.

And one of the clearest indicators to me that a person knows their argument is weak is when they declare themselves correct (or me wrong). Of course I’m free to be wrong, the problem you have is you’ve done a terrible job demonstrating that fact.

You talk about how others 'want people to feel bad', but have you considered that you are expressing the most desire to belittle others and make them feel bad? Your abrasiveness and need to triumph in what should otherwise be a genial conversation must really make it difficult to engage with people without them disliking you. Have you considered self-reflection?

Oh yeah, I'm a terrible person, no doubt about that. Doesn't change the argument one bit, however.

(See how your attempt at shame failed? That's why shame is not a useful tool.)

The problem with thinking you know everything is that you miss genuine opportunities to learn things -- I wasn't trying to shame you, I was pointing out the irony of your crusade in this thread (which is completely apparent to everyone) and urging you to self-reflect on things that could improve your life.

Even if you think I am an asshole, self-reflection can only be beneficial. One thing that may be helpful is to take a look at your actions over the thread and think about it from the other perspective, and seeing how you may appear from someone else's point of view. I do that often and though it isn't always pleasant, it does give a reality check in some key areas.

Nope sorry; I didn't say I know everything, I just provided an apparently undefeatable argument (why attack my character otherwise?).

You can lead a horse to water...

Refusing to acknowledge that other people have valid arguments and continuing to repeat the same thing over an over again is indeed 'unbeatable'.

People then ceasing to continue to argue with you because you aren't listening to them is them recognizing they are wasting their time.

Keep thinking beyond the immediate for another step and you will see how harming self esteem means a person won’t productively alter their behavior. It’s in the literature I’ve cited if you’re actually curious.

And you made a value judgement about the people who end up in jail/prison, which was completely uncalled for.

You know that things can be bad sometimes and not bad some other times? Shaming people to make them feel bad is not good; however feeling shame for having done something wrong is good -- it motivates one to avoid doing that again.

> And you made a value judgement about the people who end up in jail/prison, which was completely uncalled for.

You are being silly.

So you admit that shame can be bad? Then you’re close. Next you need to realize that shame’s effectiveness is dependent on a person feeling shame the way you want them to. But that’s not how it actually works, is it? Instead, shame is sourced from the judgements of others, so one way of effectively mitigating shame is to hide the behavior from others, rather than stopping it. So shame is ineffective.

And I’m not being silly. You tried to dismiss the legitimacy of my citation by dismissing an entire category of people. That was inconsiderate.