Your reply to me is a little vague, so I'm going to go ahead and make the argument I think you're making implicitly, and you can tell me if I'm wrong: Universities overseas are less expensive than in the US, yet the experience is the same, therefore US universities are overpriced. That's certainly a valid point. But really what I'm trying to get at here is that calling someone else's experience "overpriced", when the premise is they have self reported that the experience was "formative", is more a statement of one's own values than a fair assessment of the actual experience of that individual.
For example for some it's maybe not be overpriced because of scholarships and aid. Or it may not be overpriced because they're rich. Or it may not be overpriced because there are actually very many reasonably priced colleges out there in the USA. Everyone's experience is different, and reducing the entirety of the college experience into "an overpriced 4 year holiday" takes all the nuance out of the issue.
And you know what, despite all the disparaging talk here about college being a "holiday" and a "resort", we really do work these kids hard, at least at my institution. These young minds are out there doing incredible work, engaging in the community, creating art, and doing actual research that will change the world one day. I'm not saying these things aren't going on outside of academic institutions, but there is an endless supply of creative energy and intellectual curiosity on college campuses, and that is an important resource for society. I don't know of any other institution that fosters and grows such a concentrated level of achievement at such a young age. Corporations don't do it. Governments don't do it. Local towns don't do it. Churches don't do it. Academia is where people go to explore new ideas and find themselves. Some, especially here on HN, scoff at the idea, but really it leads to magic, and it's hard to deny that.
> I'm not saying these things aren't going on outside of academic institutions, but there is an endless supply of creative energy and intellectual curiosity on college campuses, and that is an important resource for society.
I'm not arguing against the value of a university education. My point, which you acknowledge, is that the rest of the world manage to educate their students, while providing a similarly formative experience, without costing the equivalent of a year's salary or more for each year of education.
> But really what I'm trying to get at here is that calling someone else's experience "overpriced", when the premise is they have self reported that the experience was "formative", is more a statement of one's own values than a fair assessment of the actual experience of that individual.
I'm challenging whether those same students would have received a less formative experience without luxury dormitories, catered meal plans, or unused rock climbing walls. This is a very valid question, and while it's impossible to prove counterfactuals, one good thought experiment would be to ask whether a student who graduated from a first tier public research university in 1990 or 2000 received any less of an education or formative experience than a student who graduated in 2020. After controlling for advancements in technology and pedagogy, I'm not sure you can answer yes to this. And if you can, I'm not sure you can attribute whatever benefits to the miscellaneous luxuries they currently have access to.
> one good thought experiment would be to ask whether a student who graduated from a first tier public research university in 1990 or 2000 received any less of an education or formative experience than a student who graduated in 2020.
I will say, as someone who went to university during the period you indicate, it was called overpriced and not worth it at that time as well.
Your counterfactual is a valid question, but I think it’s also irrelevant. As I said in my last post, the price one pays for any given university can vary wildly from full ride to full sticker price. Your argument seems to be that the sticker price is higher than the median salary in America, and higher than in other countries, therefore it’s overpriced. But again, those who make a median wage in America aren’t paying sticker price for college. I went to the most expensive university in the country at the time and paid 30% sticker price, making it more affordable than the public university down the street. My roommate paid sticker price because he came from a wealth family and didn’t qualify for any support. We both would report that our experiences were formative, yet not overpriced.
So you see it’s impossible to make any blanket statements about this. It’s really specific to the individual.
Anyway, that’s all I really have to say on the matter. I welcome your reply but I think my opinion is stated exhaustively.
For example for some it's maybe not be overpriced because of scholarships and aid. Or it may not be overpriced because they're rich. Or it may not be overpriced because there are actually very many reasonably priced colleges out there in the USA. Everyone's experience is different, and reducing the entirety of the college experience into "an overpriced 4 year holiday" takes all the nuance out of the issue.
And you know what, despite all the disparaging talk here about college being a "holiday" and a "resort", we really do work these kids hard, at least at my institution. These young minds are out there doing incredible work, engaging in the community, creating art, and doing actual research that will change the world one day. I'm not saying these things aren't going on outside of academic institutions, but there is an endless supply of creative energy and intellectual curiosity on college campuses, and that is an important resource for society. I don't know of any other institution that fosters and grows such a concentrated level of achievement at such a young age. Corporations don't do it. Governments don't do it. Local towns don't do it. Churches don't do it. Academia is where people go to explore new ideas and find themselves. Some, especially here on HN, scoff at the idea, but really it leads to magic, and it's hard to deny that.