I've got two nephews aged 34 and 32 who still live at home and play video games all the time and rarely leave their rooms. Neither has ever had a job that lasted more than a month or so. Neither ever learned to drive even though they live in a town with little or no public transit. They haven't had any education beyond high school. They seem wholly unprepared to navigate life without their parents. It's a slow motion tragedy.
My 45 year old sister is that way now and to a lesser extent my older brother was too. I lost _decades_ of sleep over their situation.
Ultimately I didn't know anything when I left home at 18 and I figured it out. Other people can too. How long does it take to learn how to drive, open a checking account, cook, pay bill, etc. after all ? You can learn these things privately over the Internet so there's no longer a social stigma holding you back. To digress, I eventually taught my older brother responsibility, job skills (he worked at my business), how to file taxes, basic math, etc. He became even more bitter and resentful and then one day broke down and admitted how painful it is to know nothing useful and most of what he does know he had to learn from his little brother. But eventually he started just Googling instead of calling me when he had a question he should know the answer to.
I truly feel sorry for these lost souls and if I hadn't been naturally good at math, I'd likely be one of them.
I want to comment on your brother’s reflection that he was in pain, bitter, and resentful that he did not have useful knowledge/skills and needed your help.
There is an incredible amount of shame and self-directed anger and fear in men who have found themselves in this position.
All of those feelings are heavy to carry, but they can be shoved aside and ignored by constant entertainment (video games, tv binges etc). Shoved aside they don’t hurt as bad.
But those feelings don’t go away. They get bigger as each year goes on & they flare up when confronted with having to do something they aren’t capable of doing (or think they aren’t capable) like moving out, getting a job, getting a better job, having an adult relationship etc.
Those feelings of inadequacy have to be taken on and grace & forgiveness has to be granted to oneself in order for them to spread their wings / leave the nest and not come back.
For me, the question is how do you get someone so deep into a dark emotional morass to take on the emotional dragons they’ve been hiding from?
You're not wrong generally, but this one costs about $1000 where I live, which is close to average national monthly salary and approximately twice the minimum salary.
Not pocket change for someone who has trouble finding work (and many jobs require driver's license).
Just to add to the story. My sister claimed for 10+ years she had the DMV book and just needed to study it before getting her permit. She said this repeatedly to my father and brother and no one questioned her. For 10+ years.
Then a year ago I just called a driving school near my parents house on her behalf. I offered to pay for everything including study time and taxi rides to and from the school. Whatever it took. She said she still needed more time to read the book, but I said the school would help her. So when the time finally came to schedule a pickup time, she texted me and just said that she isn't interested in learning to drive.
So that basically ended our relationship since this lie was too much. Now the only lever I have left is shunning her for her irresponsible life-style choices that put a burden on others. It has had no effect on her but at least I sleep better.
Is someone enabling this behavior in her life? My sister is the same way. My parents enabled her for a decade. Now she is 34 and has minimal life skills and no real job skills to speak of. She just works at a day care. It is a tragedy, but my parents bail her out every time and they barely have many resources themselves. My sister can at least drive and has mostly had a job for a few years now... but that is a recent development.
It sounds to me like none of your family does a very good job of understanding her. The behavior you describe sounds much less like someone who is uninterested in driving and more like someone who has significant anxiety around that activity that they are surpressing.
So at no point did anyone figure that she was experiencing pathological amounts of anxiety around learning to drive, and most likely other ordinary activities? That sounds to me like an issue mental healthcare professionals help address.
Yeah I agree with the poster that said she is scared of driving. I'm guessing the excuse that she needed to read the book was either her using an excuse to self deceptively avoid facing her fear or just an attempt to save face by not saying how fearful she was.
I've worked a bunch of jobs over the years where i've ended up being in the homes of a lot of middle class - upper class people, not that it doesn't happen with working class people too, but anyway a common thing i would see was young men my own age or older living at home with their parents, not employed.
I remember one lady in particular tried desperately to see if we could get her son a job. He'd taken a crane operator course but was scared of heights. He wouldn't even come in the room or speak with us.
The thing is, this guy didn't even seem to help at home. His mom had went out and mowed the entire very large, very sloped front yard before she came in to ask us about a job for her son. He sat in the basement the whole time.
Or the time on a weekday afternoon, dude comes out in his jimjams yelling at his mom to make breakfast while she's trying to deal with us in her kitchen which was mostly not usable.
Then there was all the people in that age range i worked with who would last less than a week. People who'd show on their first day and immediately ask when break time was or people who'd just walk out half way through the day or people who'd just straight up say they don't care and they'd rather be at home smoking weed.
Anyway, this got a bit ranty, i've got plenty more stories from over the years. Suffice to say, this is a trend i've seen a lot over the years first hand.
Our neighbors kid doesn't work, in early twenties, lives with mother. I was trying to sell my house and needed tons of lawn work. I was able to get a quote for $650 which seemed high.
So I did what I would have wanted. I walked over to the neighbor kid and asked "Would you take $550 to fix up our lawn?". He looked at me like I was an alien. He said one word, "no", then awkwardly walked away.
I would have killed to get a job offer like that in my early twenties, probably two days of work for $550! Would have grabbed a friend, six pack of beer and finished it -- that day -- and used the money for books!
It seems like an excessive pay, so maybe he thought it would be a lot of work. Have you had interactions with him before? He might have just not wanted to engage with you
As a person who is in this age range and in essentially the opposite position--my disabled mother and college age sister live with me in coastal California--the kind of thing you're describing with the guy who wouldn't come out of the room is bonkers. I know this kind of person exists as an archetype but between your anecdote and the article I'm just baffled at the apparent prevalence.
I guess part of it is the fact that my circumstances didn't even make that lifestyle an option. By my late teen years it was increasingly obvious that I had to go in the kind of direction I did if I wanted my family to have a decent life. If I had a middle class nuclear family, is it likely that I would've tore through CS classes and leetcode as much as I did? I kinda doubt it.
I felt bad writing that seemingly picking on the middle-upper class, because as much as I've seen that there...the worst example I know of is not that.
A family member of mine has not ever had a job. Everyone has tried to help him. I've given him two jobs at two different companies personally. His mom works at a dollar store and a cheap clothing store just to pay rent. She begs him to work. He spends all his time playing Xbox. She's gotten to the point where she's going to kick him out and move in with her other son. He's responded by drinking and hanging out with homeless junkies. Thank fuck as far as i know he hasn't started doing the strange purple heroin they do nowadays apparently and shit. But it's really terrible watching this. He's almost 30. There's no reason this should be happening.
I had the same life till my 26th. I then stopped watching television, threw all games away and started studying computer science. I am so happy about that move. I am 40 now. Own multiple IT businesses and have a happy family.
Game/TV addiction is really dangerous. You don't have to be a depressed person to fall into it.
For some people (myself included) Game/TV addiction is a real problem and can have drastic affects on ones life. (It did for me throughout my 20s/30s). For others it doesn't seem to have negative side effects.
My life was held back by time spent gaming for so long and later in life I realized TV was doing the same. Moderation in all things right? For me it is easier to cut them out period.
I'm happier and have a far more productive life as a result. I'm now in my 40s and have productive life and career but this didn't start until my mid 30s.
Addiction is fascinating because the distribution of outcomes is so broad across users. Damn near anything can be life-debilitatingly addictive to some segment of people while others can consume it with absolutely no problems.
Psychology obviously can't always be simplified, but I think a key component underlying when consumption goes in a bad direction is why someone is using.
If you're playing videogames because your life is otherwise fine and you want to sprinkle some leisure on top, it's fine. Hell, you can play for hours a day and it's not really a problem if you're content with the time spent.
But if you're playing videogames as an avoidance strategy for underlying psychological problems, then you're setting yourself up for addiction. Because avoidance tends to cause those problems to grow. You aren't working on them, and seeing yourself avoid them subconsciously sends a signal that the problem is too big for you to handle. So the whole time you're avoiding, you're building it up bigger and bigger.
Just want to add, you can be addicted to any number of other things to suit your avoidance needs.
I have hope for people who are addicted to video games though, because I know they have obtained the knowledge/capability to figure out the underlying metagames and redeploy those skills to other areas of their life. And judging by the anecdotes on this thread it looks promising.
Now imagine if they're addicted to drugs; They'll be having another health problem to resolve. If you have a choice of being addicted to something at least let it be video games.
I'm in my mid 30s and I am going through this addiction of reddit/youtube and other distractions for the past 10 years. I've always known how harmful it is and I want to change. Do you have any tips for someone like me? I was still able to become an engineer, but I feel like I can be better. Like everyone else my motivation and drive was so much higher when I was younger. I might be using these distractions as a form of escapism for my depression.
Speaking as a lifelong addict (started with likely an addiction to breastfeeding), if you're anything like me from a mental predisposition standpoint, all you have to do is stay an addict! It's that simple. There's nothing wrong with addiction, and I would argue, it's likely a survival mechanism. The trick is, form "healthy" addictions, along with the vices, assuming you need to keep some vices kicking around to stay sane. It took me until I had kids and could watch them develop, to realize I've been an addict like everyone else in my family, my whole life. It happened to be addictions to things like playing basketball, doing martial arts, exercising, making music, learning UNIX and systems internals, raising and growing food, wood milling and working, growing and smoking weed, reading everything I could, etc. etc. etc. I've been flipping from one addiction to another since 1-2 years old, and learning all along the way, often with outstanding end products produced due to my obsessive nature. Embrace it, and learn when it's time to move on. It will take time, and flipping to a new addiction is always a bit anxiety-inducing (but so is learning anything new!).
Humans inevitably become more creative and/or social to escape boredom. See what you're drawn to when you cut out media consumption. You can always go back to reddit after a few months if you've just been bored the entire time.
It's not easy for sure. In my case I found a girlfriend and started living somewhere else. So another change in life helps a lot.
Maybe you could search for something like that. Go live in another city albeit for a temporary period.
A pet programming job might also help. You might be still behind the pc. But at least it is not wasted with just gaming, movies etc. You could also try to search for a coach/psychologist who can support you going to the change process. Go for it. You will be rewarded.
I personally new almost a dozen people who flunked out of college due to playing MMO games. Probably at least partly my nerdy cohort, but it was more than the total of depression and/or substance abuse combined.
Do you think that video game addiction contributes to this kind of thing, or is the video game addiction a coping mechanism?
I think video game addiction is an incredibly underreported and highly destructive phenomenon. I encounter (and had to fire a few days ago) lots of young men who don't appear to ever sleep, and are highly unproductive, unmotivated, and constantly distracted. The kid I had to fire (I call him kid, but he was 28 and incredibly immature) reminded me of a former colleague in the construction industry who relapsed on his crack/cocaine addiction. Distracted, listless, kind of just there for the ride.
Edit:
Apparently ASKING about video game addiction merits downvotes with zero responses explaining why.
I think video game addiction definitely contributes. I used to spend a fair amount of time playing first person shooters in my childhood 15-20 years ago. I haven't played much nowadays but these games provide a sense of "progress" and "accomplishment", which people would probably normally seek outside. Even in the past 5 years, I've caught myself having a reflex to open a game like Apex Legends or Valorant whenever I had a free moment instead of going for a run outside, playing piano, or cooking dinner. The problem is they're really fun also, which exacerbates the problem since it's easy to follow the "greedy optimization" algorithm in life and do things that are fun and rewarding as opposed to doing challenging but longer-term actually rewarding things.
This is not to say that you should never play video games. I've found that they've been great for staying in touch with friends I would've otherwise lost touch with. A few hours a week isn't bad at all. It's just that it can snowball very quickly if you're not mindful about how you spend your time.
I luckily never really became addicted to any video games, but I'm concerned for my future children who will undoubtedly encounter video games in the future some day.
The brief synopsis of video game tester I remember reading somewhere is that it's actually incredibly boring, because it involves finding and exhaustively reproducing bugs, not actually playing a game. Is that accurate?
Incredibly boring, yes. What you do is exhaustively go through every option at every point in play, and verify it does the expected thing. Then you get a new version with fixes/improvements, and do it all over again. You learn to hate every moment doing this.
The dorm in college had a pinball machine, the old mechanical contraptions before LEDs took over. I was fascinated by them, but had no money, so playing them was a rare treat (10 cents a game, 25 for 3 games). One day, the coin op broke, and free games galore. Yay!
After playing that continuously for hours, something broke in me, and I just couldn't stand playing pinball anymore.
I honestly cannot fathom people managing to spend their lives playing video games.
The same thing happened to me with fireworks. I grew up fascinated by fireworks, and would blow every penny on them on the 4th. One day, in college, I had enough cash to buy all I wanted. I bought a lot. Went out to a field, and started lighting and throwing the black cats one by one. Bang, bang, bang. Some hours went by, again something broke. I haven't bought fireworks since. I have no interest in firework displays. The needle doesn't even move.
Go figure.
Never lost my interest in muscle cars, though :-) I grin like an idiot when I drive mine.
Video game addiction (overuse) is a coping mechanism in the face of increased anxiety in the modern world.
I don’t think it directly causes issues as much as it enables or locks in certain behaviorally patterns such as being a NEET or similar. It’s really more of a symptom of a lack of support system in a person’s life, the same way social media overuse or drug abuse comes about.
Real addictions have severe physical consequences like chemical withdrawals that can lead to death.
I find that Self-Determination Theory is a good model to look at this with. Modern school and work life provide little autonomy, little relatedness, and little (desirable/appreciated) skill for the vast majority of people whereas video games do the opposite by providing essentially an ideal playground.
> Video game addiction (overuse) is a coping mechanism in the face of increased anxiety in the modern world.
You are stating this in absolute terms, which indicates to me that you have a solid source, or are an expert in the field. If so, can you please detail?
From my background working in psychiatry (in-patient) for six years, it is certainly not that clear.
> Real addictions have severe physical consequences like chemical withdrawals that can lead to death.
So the sex addicts I treated didn't have a "real" addiction?
The gambling addicts I treated didn't either?
Or the extreme adrenaline addicts?
Also, many experts in the field seem to disagree with you. See the proposed internet gaming disorder [1].
I'm glad you responded because the person you were responded to exhibits typical thought patterns on addiction that I'm sure you are as frustrated by as I am.
People don't seem to understand that drugs like cocaine flood the brain with dopamine and that's exactly what these video games are designed to do by the psychologists the game companies hire. I don't get why people don't seem to understand that it's alarming when video game companies are hiring people from the gambling industry in Vegas.
Genuinely curious: Is video game addiction different in kind to anorexia? My understanding is the latter is often a symptom of wanting control over something. I see getting stuck on video games the same way.
I would say they're different, because it's possible to remove a lot of the triggers associated with video games, gambling, alcohol, and drugs (by not having them easily accessible, for example) but it's not possible to do that with food.
Looks like you're being downvoted for suggesting video game addiction, but I think it's a huge part of it. I refer to it as 'digital drugs'. They're definitely addicted. Even on rare occasions when they show up to family gatherings they've got their face glued to their portable games and rarely speak.
Of course, the parents played a part in enabling this. Their mom (my sis) will often suggest I buy them video games for their birthday/Christmas but I refuse to do that. What they need is a kick in the ass to get them outside.
> Even on rare occasions when they show up to family gatherings they've got their face glued to their portable games and rarely speak.
That's not video games though, that's the general digital addiction going on. And honestly, as a teenager I used to avoid everyone with books and I doubt anyone would have described me as addicted to a paper drug.
Stomping out my son's fortnite and overwatch addiction was obnoxiously difficult probably because of the stupid loot box and skin phenomenon.
He was failing out of school and had lost interest in sports. I put all of his Xbox controllers in a safe and if he wants to play games he has to maintain a straight a average and be playing at least one sport or have a after-school job.
Within about 2 weeks he was back on track at school and is now a straight a student again.
Obviously this is just an anecdote but I don't think he was suffering from any form of anxiety or anything like that. He got hooked on the games and then his brain was just unable to be excited by other things for a long time.
Very few things in the real world are as optimized as the playing experience and overwatch or the social aspects of fortnite.
I think "is it a cause or a symptom?" is a valid question and deserves serious thought. Upvoted.
I worried about my own son playing video games incessantly through his teens and twenties, but now at 28 he has been holding down a stable job for a year and I have got good reports from his employer. He's still a loner IRL though.
Would I worry so much if he were a gym rat or ultramarathoner-- an "exercise addict"? Good question.
I am also a father and I had to stomp out my son's video game addiction.
Frankly I don't think it's a major victory for a 28-year-old to have been gainfully employed for a year and still be a loner.
Being an introvert is one thing but not having a social network around you especially in your twenties is a very bad sign.
Too often people think that because their kid is introverted they shouldn't be alarmed by them not having a social network of any kind. The reality is that there are many many very healthy introverts who still have strong friendships with other people. I'm only saying this because I've seen too often people write off their children's bad lifestyle choices as simply being introverted.
I don't think I got so freaked out by video game addiction until working at my last company where we hired a bunch of people from the gaming industry. They were the ones who told me about how many top-notch behavioral psychologist are employed in the gaming industry to maximize the addictive potential of video games.
We can say what we will about exercise addicts but at least they are getting very healthy bodies and the highly positive mental health benefits of exercise. Plus when you're in a gym or if you are running trail marathons you are going to be doing so with other people who don't sit in there darkened rooms for days on end.
I'm trying to stomp out my son's video game addiction right now. The trouble is that online classes require a web browser, and there are lots of web games.
You should worry about anyone with a sedentary lifestyle, regardless of whether they play video games or not. This has serious health consequences later in life.
But competing in a lot of ultramarathons isn't necessarily healthy for the long term either. In extreme cases athletes end up with heart muscle scarring and calcification. Somewhat shorter distances might be better. Everything in moderation.
I don't think video games have anything to do with it. Humans are naturally lazy, and if all your needs are being taken care of for you, then you'll naturally seek entertainment for your boredom.
They could do all sorts of things in their spare time, from watching tv shows, movies, youtube, anime, browsing reddit/twitter/instagram/tiktok, etc.
I know someone who used to fit that description quite well and then apparently made it out at some point between 35 and 40. Seems like there is always room for a surprise improvement left.
It’s like drug or alcohol addiction. People can become somewhat “born again” usually after some kind of catastrophe and/or “rock bottom” moment. Parents allowing this from their adult children are akin to addict enablers.
Hey, stop doxxing me! Just kidding, but this post accurately describes my 20s and early 30s.
I’ve been ‘born again’ twice, once after opiate addiction and once after alcohol. I had an adult parent enabling me throughout as well. Two rock bottom moments, after the first I decided to disregard the advice I was given, and it didn’t take. The second time, I was humbled and did the work by heeding the advice I was given again. Sober house and outpatient after the inpatient stay, getting a job after outpatient, going to meetings for a year, and staying sober.
Almost 6 years later, I went from making $10/hr part time to a salaried position making low six figures in total compensation. I have a much healthier relationship with my adult enabler parent and have paid back a substantial amount of the money I guilted them out of over the years. My relationships with family have never been better, I have a great partner, and a job I enjoy. It is possible to escape, but sometimes does require a rock bottom moment.
I also spent a considerable amount of time escaping into games and TV shows, there’s a lot of overlap there with drug addiction, escapism, gambling/day trading, etc.
> ’ve been ‘born again’ twice, once after opiate addiction and once after alcohol. I had an adult parent enabling me throughout as well
As a parent of 4 kids who for various reasons are all at elevated risk for substance abuse, what can I do if/when this happens to one of my kids to not enable them?
Yeah, well, maybe. But currently they don't seem to have any motivation which is a prerequisite to improvement. I think their parents should provide that motivation by being a good bit tougher on them. They sometimes try this, but then go soft on them again after not very long.
If I may be so bold, I would encourage you to have a frank discussion around estate planning with their parents to best insulate them from pain in the future. I would recommend the home be put into a trust, a trustee appointed for the trust after parents’ deaths, and enough investments set aside to cover property taxes and maintenance on the property with investment income until death of the children. What happens to the estate after that is a family discussion.
I have seen the results of not doing this. Don’t pass the pain down. You want your children to succeed, but you also don’t want them to suffer needlessly. Being homeless is an incredibly difficult gravity well to escape, more so without appreciable skills.
(not an attorney or financial planner, not your attorney or financial planner, please consult one of each, educational purposes only)
From an environmental perspective, this kind of minimalist lifestyle actually seems quite healthy. They don't drive, and I assume they don't fly or buy a lot of stuff, so their carbon and other resource footprint is small. They don't take up much extra space, so they reduce suburban sprawl and land required for housing. They probably won't have kids, which further reduces their environmental impact. Maybe we should encourage more people to live this way.
In the future, it may even be more efficient to hook them up to a large computer that is able to use them as a power source, too. We could offer them a virtual reality completely indistinguishable from reality.
The problem is it's hard to get right. I saw a documentary where people broke out of the dream and it caused all sorts of issues, they were able break out other people using pills and teach them to fly and other unrealistic things.
> Maybe we should encourage more people to live this way.
Sounds like an episode of Black Mirror. Life is meant to be lived; the purpose of life is at least eudaimonia, not slowly rotting away in front of a computer.
You can write books, compose music, build software, debate opinions all in front of a computer. It’s not the sitting in front of the computer that’s the problem.
That usage of "lived" is a romanticization. It's the grandparent telling the starry-eyed children about the good old times, glossing over the decades of toil and hardship.
Many video games similarly skip time to focus on heroic moments. You don't role-play the 10,000 hours studying tomes at Hogwarts to become a 1st level wizard; instead you start the adventure at graduation, or at most do a training montage.
> That usage of "lived" is a romanticization. It's the grandparent telling the starry-eyed children about the good old times, glossing over the decades of toil and hardship.
Nah, the grandparent knows exactly well the good old times were the decades of toil and hardship. The kids won't get it if the grandparent tells these core truths anyways, until they live it.
Not everything would agree. Most of the life on the planet's only hope is to be around long enough to reproduce and then be consumed in one way or the other. Humanity puts a lot of pressure on itself to flourish.
Well, perhaps they find the virtual life more compelling than the real one...
The problem is sustainability.
A virtual life cannot sustain itself indefinitely, and is not very robust. If money runs out or a tragedy occurs, it will be a scramble to get a job and interact in the real world. A virtual life does not contribute to society (if we mean a purely passive virtual life), and if people start adopting it en masse we'd be in trouble.
As far as I can see, we could simply try create a virtual life (or any kind of activity) that both is sustainable, and gives an interesting, engrossing life experience.
Would your tune be any different if they were 34, staying at home all day playing video games, but somehow earning half a million dollars a year doing some "gamer" Twitch/Patreon/YouTube/influencer streaming schtick? Or, better yet, playing video games all day, but magically manage to make obscene amounts of money "trading cryptocoins" . Would their lifestyles suddenly become acceptable to you, simply because they are "making money" off of their sedentary lifestyle ?
I think this would somewhat validate his “prepared for life” argument because if they have a lot of money they can provide for themselves (food and transport is pretty easy with the gig economy).
(The previous comment used to include something about people wanting to quit their jobs and just play games all day)
For your point about playing games all day — there’s definitely some aspect of “having a purpose” that makes some hold down a job even if they are already rich. So for some it’s definitely their life dream to sit in their room all day, and for some having something that you can point to saying “I contributed this” is an invaluable part of their lives
Being an influencer is an enormous amount of work. Sure, one could build a brand around games, but maintaining that brand is constant effort, even though the audience rarely sees it.
The people you talk about work awful lot and burn out. Attracting and keeping audience is hard, just playing wont make people watch it regularly. You are entertainer there. And you constantly deal with harassement and bs.
I think if they were working from home it would, obviously, be a different story. They could stash some cash away and be able to care for their aging parents in the future.
I obviously don't know this person at all, but from what I know of how Social Security disability works, 22 is a really unlikely age to qualify. Are you sure it wasn't slightly earlier or later?
To be eligible in your own right, you have to have paid into Social Security for a total of 40 quarters before becoming disabled. Given child labor laws, it's rare that you could accumulate enough quarters before age 26 or so.
The other way is to be eligible on a parent's social security, as a "disabled child", which is defined as someone who became disabled before age 22. If you suffered a permanent disability at age 21, and have a parent who paid enough into SS to be eligible, you can receive "child" benefits from their account even as an adult: https://www.ssa.gov/benefits/disability/qualify.html#anchor7
This leaves an unfortunate gap for people who genuinely become permanently disabled due to an accident or medical condition that happens around age 22-25, because they can't qualify through either route.
>> To be eligible in your own right, you have to have paid into Social Security for a total of 40 quarters before becoming disabled
Looks like there are different rules for disability for young workers:
"To be eligible for disability benefits, you must meet a recent work test and a duration work test.
The number of credits necessary to meet the recent work test depends on your age. The rules are as follows:
Before age 24 - You may qualify if you have 6 credits earned in the 3-year period ending when your disability starts.
Age 24 to 31 – In general, you may qualify if you have credit for working half the time between age 21 and the time you become disabled. As a general example, if you become disabled at age 27, you would need 3 years of work (12 credits) out of the past 6 years (between ages 21 and 27).
Age 31 or older - In general, you must have at least 20 credits in the 10-year period immediately before you become disabled."
I find it so odd how society gets obsessed with boogeyman examples of people taking advantage of the system. There will always be some people who take advantage of the system. Accept that, keep it reasonable, but optimize the system for those who will improve it.
The flip side is this person is hurting society significantly less than some committing crimes - even worse crimes that are sentenced to jail time (which is very expensive).
I don’t know this dude, and if you know he’s just scamming the system I’ll take your word for it, but when I’ve experienced serious physical pain I’ve found video games much more helpful than OTC painkillers.
Well maybe they're smart enough to know that, in a world where most things have either been automated or offshored, the only purpose most jobs serve in the grand scheme of things is to increase the velocity of capital. If you had a choice between the fake purpose offered by an office job where you get to be a peon, versus the fake purpose offered by a video game where you get to be a hero: which would you choose?
I may be projecting here but your nephews, if they are like some of my relatives, may not be neurotypical (for example they may have Aspergers disorder). If this is the case their behavior may be better understood in that context that a social one.
My friend's brother is like this. It's pretty obvious upon talking to him that he has some kind of atypical neurology but his parents completely refuse this, and thus keep him trapped in his little bubble without getting any help.
It's the parents fault for coddling them. If they kicked them out at 18, the nephews would definitely need to work and may realize the importance of having a better job/career.
I deal with a lot of 18-19 year olds as my primary job is teaching first year engineering students.
I will tell you it is a LOT more complicated than this. This type of single point simplification and pronouncement about 'coddling' is decidedly unhelpful.
For starters, if you grow up in two working parent household, both parents can easily come home completely exhausted and unable to provide the extended engagement necessary to help a child develop. Add in the social pressures of school where EVERYONE has an iphone and games where it is socially isolating not to do these things - which carries its own set of risks. Add in a public education system that doesn't focus on development and instead focuses on learning material. Add in an economy designed to optimize extraction of capital from individuals through psychological programming and ads and more stuff to buy.
None of this has to have a single source of blame, much of its realistically structural and cultural. It isn't one bad actor or one failed thing...it is a large number of individuals, groups, and organizations individually performing Goodhart's law and the result is some get cast aside.
If the parents don't provide for them, what do you think would happen to the nephews? Do you think they would be homeless? I certainly don't.
The fact that the parents are providing a roof over their head and paying for their food/water/electricity/internet/clothes/games/etc is why they haven't had a job nor any desire for one well into their 30s.
Honestly, because the parents keep providing for them, there's no impetus for them to change, so they may as well do this into their 40s or 50s.
Minimum wage is enough to survive, and almost anyone that's not severely mentally/physically disabled can do most minimum wage work. In this case, it's not a matter of lack of ability, but lack of willingness.
That said, I have nothing against parents willing to provide housing/support if the child is working, still furthering their education, or need some help getting their feet back on the ground. But at this point, this is none of that, and just enabling their behavior.
The parents certainly can be enabling, but I think you're ignoring that there are plenty of people that are homeless, that do wind up with dependencies on alcohol, drugs like meth, etc, and your implication that anyone (especially people in their 30s with no real work history) can get full-time, minimum wage work doesn't seem realistic. Many of those jobs are both minimum wage and few enough hours per week (to avoid having to give you benefits, of course) that it would be extremely difficult to live independently, while still requiring a schedule that makes it nearly impossible to take on other jobs.
I'm in my 30s and have now seen several high school classmates with similarly poor prospects eventually succumb to drug overdoses.
Spiked rich kids are spoiled. If they weren't spoiled rich kids the parents would be risking homelessness by supporting a layabout who isn't paying rent.
Fully agree with this for 18-19 year olds, but at some point (25? 30?) it really does seem like coddling, or enabling at least. At some point you have to move out and support yourself.
"Pamper, pander to". Perhaps it's a loaded word but as a parent who may some day be facing this situation (from the parent point of view) I feel like I'm justified in my judgement.
FWIW I do have friends that were forced out of the house at 18. At the time I was the same age and I thought it was harsh. Many years later though, I can see that it worked out just fine.
I think the term 'coddling ' is not the best. I grew up during the 90's in a hyper-controled environment by a macho dad and a passive mom. I was told to not become an artist, to not travel when I am young (waste of time), to learn how to drive a car, to get a job, get a degree, all that jazz. The thing is, at 32, I still have no sense of purpose in life.
When all the goals are chosen for you, it does not matter if you were over-protected or not. You cannot build true self esteem and confidence if you don't succeed and/or fail at a dream of your choice. There is no point learning to drive a car if you do not know where you want to go, to earn money if you don't know what you want to buy, and to get into a career if you have no sense of purpose.
Videogames are addictive not only because they are fun, they provide you with a goal and 'achievements'. In my humble opinion, sex for the sake of sex (real or porn), promotions for the sake of promotions or else are all caused by the same emotional male problem ; the inability to feel emotions and learn from them what is truly important for yourself. The % of young men in the labour force is just a symptom of that.
I was told that ''fiding your passion is stupid'', and that ''its better to become an unhappy physician than a happy artist''. Since I've hit the job market I've spent thousands of $ in therapy and many weekends in various spiritual activities to reorient my life. And I still my first burnout at 30.
My opinion now is that sense of purpose AND being able to support yourself are essential; you have cash balance to keep in check with the tribe, and an emotional balance to keep in check with yourself. An adult should be able to do both. I think that people who do the former without doing the later may succeed economically, but on the long run they drain everybody and subconsciously expect others to take care of their own emotions. My father was like that, and his own children don't call him 'daddy'.
I also think its a very male difficulty, because boys learn to suppress emotions at a young age. It makes it harder to find meaningful careers, but also to sustain relationships and to evolve in your spirituality. Men drop out of school, do not enter the workforce, and lament that tinder is unfair. In my humble opinion, it is a purpose problem, not a ''how do I clean my room'' problem.
I agree with your sentiment except for the « men unable to feel » thing. Emotions and sentiments are a fundamentally human thing and men feel too. However there is a social pressure on men to not show emotions and sentiments.
We fight patriarchy so that women are less pressured into being fragile and pretty housewives but we should also fight it so that men are less pressured to be emotionless hardworking robots who have to provide for their family.
At the same time, I see people leave home in their teens or 20s and work a series of crappy minimum wage jobs and never get a decent one with benefits, because they're busy surviving or don't see a better option.
An ideal situation requires pressure to succeed, while also providing resources and guidance to be successful.
Yep, I dropped out of school my sophomore year because I was working a job and I was prioritizing a social life I didn’t have in high school. 7 years later and I’m too busy surviving crappy jobs to go back to school, or I think that I would be too busy working to succeed in my coursework.
Doesn't always work, video games are probably the cheapest addicting entertainment out there. Doesn't take much income to just survive and play video games all day long.
I highly doubt that video games are solely to blame.
I was quite addicted to video games until my early 20s, but I eventually understood that gaming falls down the priority list as you take on more responsibilities in life. My friends were the same.
Definitely a symptom and not a cause. Like people that drink heavily in university then don't later once they have obligations.
My university roommate played video games nonstop. Then he graduated, got a job (as a video game developer) and has a wife and three kids. It's like any addiction, its filling a void, but the object of abuse is not what's to blame.
But at least they would be working, probably know how to drive a car, and may consider furthering their education/career when they realize how little they make for their time.
This is maybe a ridiculous question, but why is that so much better? If someone is able to live cheaply, why is it better for them to work in some menial, low-wage job versus being supported by a relative? I think something you have to consider is that if you have low social standing and are poorly educated, your options in life are not necessarily super appealing.
Who's to say that they'd remain in low-wage job? They may be wildly wealthy in the future. It's hard to know, since their potential is being squandered by the parents enabling this behavior.
What avenues would they have to realize their potential? College is obscenely expensive, a degree from a community college is afaik useless, rent prices are bonkers, and the job market for those without a degree is wage slavery.
I am suspecting that because of the lack of full employment a degree is just a hack to get first in line for the jobs that the economy is resentfully providing. If companies couldn't find enough workers they'd lower standards and offer training. It's precisely because they can find all the workers they could hope for that we have put the burden of training onto workers.
Yeah, one of my fears is we simply have too many people and too few jobs in this kind of economy. The lower birth rates are a gaia consciousness response to overpopulation in this respect
It's interesting that you don't mention trade schools and then apprenticeship. That's where I'd look, personally, and my impression is that people in the trades can make bank, especially if they eventually set up their own business.
not really, there's only so many tradesmen an area can support, and only union members get any real standard of living. Plus, there's the whole "destroying your body" thing; it's not computer scientists behind the opioid crisis, for example. Its drudgery, extremely hard work, and with a side order of ill health for the rest of your life.
Consider that the limited resource may be mental, not temporal.
We don't expect everyone to be able to run a 10-minute mile, even though most people can. Likewise we shouldn't expect everyone to be able to hold down a 40+ hour-a-week job and "functional adult" life, even though most people can.
James Dobson once said about a similar scenario, "your son doesn't have a problem, _you_ have problem." Meaning providing lodging and meals for someone who refuses to work is actually enabling on the part of the parents.
I agree with this. I think it has something to do with my sister (their mom) being a single mom from the time they were 6, 8 years old till she remarried when they were teenagers and their stepfather not wanting to interfere too much in the parenting department.
As you noted, it is likely that something went seriously wrong with raising them (coddling, over-helping, etc.). But you don’t need to be “kicked out” to start working on building your life and your career.
I meant being kicked out if the parents clearly see 0 desire from the child to further their education or get a job. I don't think there's anything wrong with people living with their parents if they're going to school or working.
But there is definitely something wrong with paying gaming computer for son who is old enough to work and dont. Or son who is old enough to clean and never does.
None of these stories have issue that started at 24. They all have parents enabling the kid ever since kid was 6.
I appreciate the frustration, and why this got shared, but realistically...this is the current observation and gives so little data about how we got here that I worry about the comments attributing blame to your post.
Two distant family members of mine fit this description fairly well...One was raised in an unstable, low income household, with mentally ill parents, is on the autism spectrum, and both parents worked multiple jobs that included overnight shifts. There was no ability, energy, or understanding to seek assistance and intervention early enough to make a difference. The other family member comes from effectively the complete opposite end of each one of those variables.
I don't even understand how this happens. I was kicked out of home at 16. Neither of my parents would have allowed me to stay at home until my thirties.
Then again, I'm a father now and I can't imagine ever asking my daughter to leave home. But I would definitely expect her to have a job and contribute to household expenses well before her 30's.
I want to put some blame on people's focus on university education here. Every guy I've met in this type of situation is someone that isn't stupid, but they don't excel in academia either. Their family treats them like crap because they didn't go to university or dropped after they got there. They become depressed because they compare themselves to their "smarter" peers who appear to have everything worked out are doing great in life. Constantly pushing someone towards university when it's maybe not the best idea for them, then calling them a loser when they bomb out just engenders learned helplessness in the individual. Then people why these individuals stop trying.
This is the trap of social media and why many people would be healthier and happier if they were able to live & be present in the moment without their phone.
Plenty of people will read this comment and think that is not them but if there is not a point in your day when your phone is not on you, out of sights and out of reach for at least an hour you're not as "present" as you think.
Not after they were around 6 and 8. Their mom remarried when they were in their teens. So yeah, probably that's part of the problem. But their biological father was also quite lazy and never had a job for very long (part of the reason she left him, that and he did a good bit of gaslighting) so it's not like he was a great example for them to follow (In fact, last I heard he was living with his parents and he's well into his 50s).
I’m not keen on giving a pass that easily. The US education system is decent, and if they can read and write, and have access to internet and a stable home, it’s on them at some point to take it initiative.
Well as prospective adoptive father... In some ways... Yes. That was part of our adoption training. To learn that many adoptees want to know their biological mom and dad and suffer greatly if they're not able. An adoptive father can provide all the emotional support in the world and the day to day fathering, but he can't provide the biology, whereas a biological one can provide both the day to day fathering and the bio connection.
It's not a popular sentiment... But it was required as part of our certification in california. When separated from mom and dad, they call it the primal wound, but our society accepts separating children from one parent without any of the guilting they require adoptive parents to go through.
From a purely empirical standpoint, in aggregate, biological father's are the least likely to hurt or kill their children. Both adoptive father's and step father's are more likely to. Says nothing about individuals, but as a society it would behoove the powers that be to ensure most kids are raised by bio parents. And by far most states adopt this approach, even to the point of absurdity.
My twin brother and I grew up without a biological father, were very independent at an early age, and both have high-paying jobs in faang. Both well-adjusted, multiple relationships, successful, etc.
I see a lot of Jordan Peterson-esque BS professing these “no biological father == neet” rules, and I’m not saying that’s the point you’re leading with your question, but am jumping at any opportunity to dispel it, just in case.
and someone can successfully complete high end raids in world of warcraft despite being a paraplegic. Doesn't mean everyone should be able to do so or its too easy to raid. Don't view outliers and your own experience as standard; high achievers do this way too often and end up discounting the real difficulty and struggles in accomplishing such a thing.
Right, but the point I’m making is being raised without a father is not the (to take your example) paraplegic-level setback some in the red pill camp seem to think it is.
It’s not even an outlier experience, either. Even among high achievers. Consider that ~50% of African American NBA players and ~20% of white NBA players come from a single parent household. [0]
Curious, do you think the parent poster was saying that fatherless households actually give rise to paraplegics somehow? If not, why not respond to the actual argument with relevant data, rather than responding to strawmen arguments with NBA participation rates? Just seems like a very odd piece of data to bring up unless you can provide evidence that NBA participation rates are representative of overall well-being for the metrics under discussion.
An irony that is not lost on me is that high achievers often have their own problems that they would know about if they and society wasn’t so keen to dismiss the problems of others. I was told I was lazy when I couldn’t keep up with the other kids physically (just exercise more), and I thought they were lazy when other kids couldn’t keep up with me mentally (just study more). Turns out it was hEDS. It would have been nice to have figured that out 25 years earlier, the damn thing near ruined my life.
That's absolutely wild. As far as I knew the most you owe anyone staying in your house is 24 hours to remove their things after which you can call the sheriff to arrest them as a trespasser. I can't believe they had to go to court over that.
Most states require all kinds of hoops to evict a resident. Even without a a lease. You can’t just lock them out. Sometimes the penalties for a wrongful eviction can be severe. And, in some states, there are criminal penalties.
(As a practical matter, it rarely comes to this as a couch-surfer will go find another couch instead of wasting money on attorneys and the like. But, typically, the owner of the property can’t just unilaterally decide a resident is a trespasser and kick them out.)
Depends on the state. New York requires an ejectment hearing since he's family but in most states he doesn't have any more rights than a regular guest, since by his own admission he has never been asked to pay rent or contribute to expenses. Outside of certain cities with local protection laws, you can just change the locks when they leave.
I see this a good bit. And it is hard to get into the psychology of the individuals. I would work any job I could get if I was unemployed. I have taken retail jobs when I was unemployed or we could use extra income. My wife has done the same.
A few people I know come to mind that reminds me of your nephews and I simply cannot understand it. Right now there are hiring signs up in almost every business in my town. I would rather work (if I could) than take unemployment even if it would be a pay cut.
I suppose they'll inherit the house if it's paid off by then and continue to live as they are for a time. They seem fond of instant ramen, so I guess maybe they're partially prepared. But then again, when the property tax comes due they'll likely not be able to pay it and eventually become homeless after the house proceeds run out. The future seems pretty bleak for them.
It's interesting how few (I haven't actually seen any) of the comment replies are addressing the parents. I'd probably put equal onus on the parents to have better parented their children into adulthood.
He said, in a time of record unemployment and low wages that are impossible to live off of. Almost like there are other factors at play here than just men being lazy.
HN loves to forget that not everybody can be a FAANG employee or has the desire to sit in front of a computer writing code their whole lives.
I'm a male FAANG employee in my 30's living with my parents.
It's nice. My dad makes us lunches, my mom cooks dinners, and I do yardwork. My girlfriend lives a few miles away with her parents, who are great. We regularly eat with one family or the other, and we often sleep together at one house or the other. We use the family cars.
Except for the job, we'd be considered failures for this nice life.
It seems like you're not really starting adult life, and you're running out of years to do so. I started my 30's with 3 kids already, and ended my 30's with 9 kids. I bought a house. That house is my responsibility, without even an HOA. I don't have to ask mom for anything. I don't need parental permission. I got to pick the car I wanted to buy. If I feel like painting the house cyan or parking my car on the lawn, I can do so.
Bullshit. Oklahoma has a 4% unemployment rate and a very low cost of living. Some other states are similar. Anyone who's willing to show up and work hard can survive there.
You have to consider that deciding to stay unemployed is one of the few remaining ways workers can strike nowadays. Most of them have zero power on the negotiating table but they still have some power by choosing to not work at all.
Colorado is expensive as anything to live in and is only getting more expensive. $18/hour is NOT a livable wage in Boulder. $35/hour is only 72k a year at full employment (unlikely as a contractor employee) and probably will not receive benefits. That is also not enough to live in Denver or Boulder with a family.
The jobs are out there AND DO NOT PAY ENOUGH TO LIVE IN THE AREAS THEY ARE IN.
And before some genius comes in and says "Well don't live in those expensive cities then", those expensive cities still want burgers and stocked store shelves and everything else, they just don't want to pay people enough to live off of.
From what I understand, the problem is not minimum wages, but unstable employment. You may be getting paid an acceptable amount but at the drop of a hat your employer will say that you aren't working next week which is much harder to cope with than earning less but knowing you will have x in the bank every week.
Big cities still need people to do the jobs that only pay minimum wage. There was a whole thing last year about how important those minimum wage workers are, but you've probably forgotten already.
I’m 35 and burnt out by working almost nonstop since I was 14… I have something to show for it, but I don’t care anymore and would rather live like your nephews.
I was able to move out after 5 years working as a software developer and my bf also getting a full time developer job. But I recognize I am in the top few % at my age and would not blame anyone for staying with their parents for longer. Especially if they were building up savings to help them in life.
Let’s not derail the thread. Social security is underfunded, but will continue to provide benefits at a reduced level (~76%) when the trust fund runs dry in 2034 (which is just accounting in the gov budget). A variety of small measures can be implemented to ensure ongoing solvency, and likely will take place, even if extreme measures like a contribution from the general fund is needed. The US does not default on its obligations, and as long as there is economic activity, there will be contributions to social security.
