The "tier" thing pisses me off. Lots of "top tier" people go to "third tier" universities for various reasons. Eg, financial, family commitments, non-traditional circumstances, etc.

I was accepted to a top tier CS uni, but did not get financial aid. I came from a blue collar family with parents born in the depression era. So we saved every penny. Every dime my parents had went into paying off their (tiny) mortgage on their (equally tiny) house. Yet, back in the 80s, that was counted as an asset in the financial aid process. So I ended up going to a 2nd/3rd tier local state university on an academic scholarship, then a top tier place for grad school (fully funded).

It all worked out in the end, and I wound up at Google. While there, they tried to get me to go on a recruiting trip to my grad school. I demurred, and said I'd prefer to go to my undergrad school. So they signed me up to do outreach to long tail universities. Rather than sending people on site, like for Stanford, MIT, etc, this turned out to be a Google hangouts chat with multiple different state universities. It was better than nothing, but it was nothing like the effort they put into recruiting from the "top tier" places. I think they may be missing a lot of good people.

Google definitely lets top tier employees slip right through their hiring process, as does basically every other company. Is Google going to be reaching out often to students at universities near their campus locations? Probably not, and definitely not with the intensity that they go after students at first tier universities with middling CS programs.

Where you get your degree from is important, and will change your prospects of getting hired (eg. Many companies won't hire UBC graduates, even though they do better than candidates from tier 1 universities). Hopefully their loss & the graduate's gain, since there are likely other major issues lurking under the surface with many of those companies that self select not to hire those candidates.

I am not an expert, but

#1. You are average of 5 peers you hang out with (a good thumb rule).

#2. There is a huge valley between Software Engineering vs Computer Science (what is your goal here.)

For #1. meet-ups and getting programmer mentor is good idea.

If you really want to do pure CS, there is no alternative to college, but for Software Gig, a good programmer mentor gives better direction than College/University.

edit: this advice is primarily for second/third tier universities or comparing with them.

Yet none of that matters if top companies don't interview at your school for internships...which they don't for the most part.

Top company internships certainly HELP, but you are really aren't that far behind if you don't get them.

Getting a job right out of college is hard. Everyone is looking for a year of experience.

But once you get that FIRST job, things are smooth sailing. I never got recruitment message in college, but after I had graduated, and was working for a year, I starting getting multiple every week.

Top company jobs, are of course awesome. But if you don't get them right out of college, you can pretty easily do it after a year or 2 of working in the industry in SF.

My biggest concern is salary trajectory. For instance, a converting intern at FB gets $75-125K signing over a normal new grad hire (just an example, less applicable to me specifically).

O.o Are the numbers really that high? Boy have I been in the startup industry for way too long....

FB is an exception to the rule here.

I dunno, I hear similar things about all of the big 5

That's not including RSUs too, just cash.

You can always reach out to companies yourself.

I graduated from a second-tier university in a small eastern-european university and did find internship opportunities in SV so I can assert with confidence: your options are what you make of them with your own skills, aptitude and attitude.

I accepted an offer for the summer from a company that doesn't recruit at my school anymore.

But my options still pale in comparison to what people at top tier schools have. Sad to say my overall salary trajectory is probably going to suffer because of it when I look fulltime.

If you're doing an internship, you already have a leg up on a lot of the people at top tier schools.

I mean, I'd wager most of them intern at top tier places multiple years, whereas I'm only going to intern in a big company for one summer. I'd be surprised if they didn't at all, honestly.

I didn't manage to land any interviews at "top" companies when I was in college, but I think that was largely because I applied way too late (apparently for companies like Google,FB, etc, you need to apply by like November of the year before for internships). However, I do know other people who managed to get Amazon, Microsoft, and Google internships even though they didn't interview at our school, so there seems to be some way to get in by applying yourself.

I've heard from one person that they managed to get an interview at FB by first getting an internship at Amazon so you can try that. I suspect this is how I got my interviews (for full time positions though) at Google/FB as well.

Google was at the career fair at my university. I went and talked to them. They said apply online. I did that, did phone interviews and got an internship.

So at least for Google, they don't need to come to your college.

You can apply online to top companies. You won't go nearly as far if you passively wait for opportunity to come to you.

Top companies get tens of thousands of resumes from undergrads. They actively recruit mostly at only a few prestigious schools because it's an easy filter for candidates without job histories and therefore lacking strong signals. If you're not going to one of the schools they care about you need to be able to give a really good reason why you should stand out.

It used to be tech was all about skill and nothing else mattered. Netscape, Microsoft, etc had lots of people with zero university - you just had to be able to code.

But something has changed since then. Now the big companies primarily hire from "target" schools - much like how finance does it.

Skill is still heavily in demand and a non top tier school isn't a deal breaker. But your working up hill.

Definitely, the major change has been Universities monetizing this whole segment of untapped market, whereby they can get 4 paid years of tuition from the average student, where before all these people were bypassing their educational system.

Same deal with bootcamps, just much shorter timelines and larger margins. Its an industry that allows HR and managers to easily make decisions about hiring, even though hiring is like judging wine, some years at some schools produced much better talent than others, and that talent has (hopefully) improved since then... and small unknown vineyards can produce amazing stuff.

I don't really think it matters. I grew up in government housing as a child, lived in a very violent city all the way through high school, in an area ranked the least educated in the US. I just worked hard, made the right choices, didn't do anything too stupid (or didn't get caught ;-)), and kept at it, studied, building skills. Got an undergraduate and graduate degree from UT Dallas. Started at Amazon shortly after, went from a junior dev to a senior dev in 3 years. Nobody ever cared which school I went to. Mostly I feel like I got lucky, but hard work, ritual, and repetition matter more than which particular school ones goes to, I think.

during those 3 years, did you continue learning mostly at work? Or outside? (ie programming languages, systems design, etc.)? Or was it basically "I never brought work to home."?

I mostly stayed focused on work... that's why I stopped working on http://ihackernews.com and other side projects.

I worked probably 60 to 80 hours a week -- because I wanted to, not because I was forced. Managers actually asked me to work less.

I learned at lot at Amazon (across retail and AWS) so I didn't feel the need to keep up the level of studying I did prior to working at Amazon. Reading code reviews and watching email lists is a great way to learn and Amazon has really good internal emailing lists.

3 years at Amazon practically makes you a piece of the furniture there! That puts you well into the top 10% of employees by length of employment. Good job in surviving what most can't!

I stayed almost 6 years. I just had a really good opportunity, otherwise I would have stayed.

You're not going to work for big brand companies in Silicon Valley, because they use alma mater as one of the few legal mass filters.

That's not the end of the world. Learn, enjoy, don't be an asshole, build bridges to other people, and work hard and you'll be fine.

There's a saying/proverb that I'll butcher... a lily is an incredibly beautiful flower, but it only grows in the muck at the edge of the lake. Be the lily.

Well, get the best grades you can. Master algorithms and data structures. Then apply for the jobs you want. If that fails, apply and go to grad school at a top tier University. Everything else will work out. Promise.

I'll answer the over-arching theme of your question, and then your actual concrete questions.

I'm a self-taught programmer (started freelancing/interning in high school). I then attended a second/third rate institution for undergrad and first rate institution for my phd. I have peer groups from all three of those educational experiences, so I have a unique perspective on this question.

My perspective is that a CS degree maybe isn't worth it (and/or you should get the cheapest one possible) if you're content in a job with an average salary in a regional job market that isn't NYC/SV/Seattle.

If you have higher ambitions (engineering leadership, a job at a competitive employer, much higher than average salary at stable company, research, consulting, uniquely intellectually stimulating work, etc.), things change.

With respect to all of the above career goals, attending a first-rate university is tremendously helpful. First rate universities really do provide education, resources, and peer groups that are all substantially different in kind from the education you'll receive at a second/third rate institution. You'll be treated differently in the job market. That treatment will be rendered for unfair reasons, but will probably be fair treatment -- if you apply yourself even a little, you really will be better prepared to tackle tough problems.

With respect to all of the above career goals, second/third rate universities really are exactly what you make of them. You should treat it as 3-4 years to develop a portfolio of interests, skills, and projects without having to explain why you spent your early twenties un/under-employed.

Now, with respect to your actual questions:

> that "school doesn't matter"

School matters. Sorry, it does. You'll get access to recruiters, and they'll care a lot more about getting you in for an interview. Everything is a little bit easier. You still have to pull some weight, but getting in the door is so much easier. I tried it both ways. Anyone who tells you otherwise is full of it.

Someone without a top university behind their name -- or any uni degree at all -- can do anything someone with those things can do. Especially in our field. But it will be tremendously more difficult.

> and "college is what you make it".

That said, college, and all school is always what you make of it. But there's a catch. Not all hard work is equal in value, and not all valuable hard work is noticed. Top schools will try to show you how to do valuable work. They will make sure 100% that valuable hard work is noticed. However, it's still on you to do the hard work part.