Tesla is behaving like a company which doesn't realize the competition is catching up fast. For a long time they were the only game in town if you wanted an actually-good EV, which let them get away with some of their weirder and worse decisions, but now there are lots of good options available and it's no longer necessary to put up with this. I think they're in for a bad couple years if they don't return to putting the customer first.
This is happening all over Europe and it’s only one of the two insanely popular models Tesla sell. My wife has a Polestar and it’s awesome (second best electric car manufacturer in my mind), but it can’t compete with my model 3.
Try a VW ID and see what you think of the software, in fact try any modern manufacturers software and compare it to Tesla. It’s always junk. The only reason the Polestar is close is because it’s native android running the show.
Tesla have a ton of issues, but the iPhone had a ton of issues when it launched, but if you were shouting about how good your blackberry keyboard was you were having the wrong conversation. I don’t think the other auto companies have embraced the paradigm shift that Tesla have introduced.
> Try a VW ID and see what you think of the software, in fact try any modern manufacturers software and compare it to Tesla. It’s always junk. The only reason the Polestar is close is because it’s native android running the show.
I don't always agree with Tesla's -UX- decisions, and things that are buried layers deep, but their UI is certainly one of the nicest, agreed. But there's more to it than that.
And if the response to that is "Just use voice control", well, then it doesn't matter anywhere near as much that they have the nicest UIs.
The big thing I notice is that a lot of Tesla owners are fully bought into the "dinosaur" hype and think that many Tesla features are exclusive to them.
Meanwhile, my non-Tesla has things like:
- Traffic sign recognition - my car talks to (well, listens to) the traffic lights in my city and actually will show a countdown until when they will change. It will even recognize school zone signs and (at least when they are connected to lights) will recognize when those are active (will display 'school' above the speed limit, regardless, and then blink that if it notes a blinking light associated with that sign).
- Adaptive blind spot - so nice. Speed differential low, or you're going faster? Will not activate, or only activate last moment. But if someone is blowing by you in the HOV lane, it will warn of them when they're still several hundred feet back.
- Laser headlights. Matrix headlights. Night vision with thermal imaging.
- Predictive active suspension - The car actively scans the road ahead with sensors and it will adjust suspension for poorer road conditions.
- The car can not just stop, but will actively swerve, if safe, around obstructions to avoid a collision, or even a parked car opening a door into traffic.
You know who else is fully bought into the "dinosaur" hype and think that many features are exclusive to them? Apple/iPhone users. Apple is constantly behind competitors when it comes to cameras and functionalities, but they are still the most valuable company in the world.
My Tesla Model 3 has matrix lights physically but not the software to make them actually useful beyond being really nice lights. It does not have any of the pixel control beyond the pointless light show which I have never even tried.
Tesla's Adaptive Suspension is essentially "adjustable suspension":
> new control settings for Standard and Sport modes allow the driver to adjust the suspension for a smoother or more “road aware” driving feel. Originally a move away from the control structure of the older Smart Air Suspension, the Adaptive Suspension is raised and lowered based on preference selections in the control panel (Never, Always, or Highway) rather than through ride height by increments.
The Audi system does that and a bunch more:
- raises the car for ingress and egress
- It's also meant to absorb the road's pitches and dips by prepping the chassis where appropriate.
- In comfort mode, the front camera pairs up with the steering, which allows the car to feel any unevenness and signal the system to respond accordingly.
- Audi also claims that a "curve-tilting function" cuts down on lateral acceleration felt by occupants.
- "Upon entering a curve, it elevates the side of the body on the outside of the curve and lowers the other side, thereby tilting it into the curve up to three degrees,"
As a Tesla owner, I find the software to be buggy with a poor UX. I much prefer the CarPlay experience and wish all manufacturers just stopped trying to push software we don’t need.
1. Opinionated “clean” UX has no place in a car. The important buttons need to be bigger and the alerts clearer. Colors need to be employed to draw attention.
2. A shocking number of bugs get released on stable that they fix in the next release. It seems the car prompts you about an update almost every time you drive.
3. It’s annoying to have to rely on two data plans that provide the same functionality - let me use my phone data instead of upselling me on a data plan that I need to have a good experience.
4. It’s super annoying to rely on their Spotify player which keeps getting worse (ie hiding the shuffle button below two levels of tiny arrows - what??)
5. Their voice recognition is awful - worse than Siri. It’s starting to feel extremely antiquated. The fact I can rarely call up the right name to send a message and then have to make several attempts to speak a message - bleh. Will this ever be an enough of a priority for them to compete with google? No, but it’s critical for car software and the gap between their walled garden and state of the art will get worse and worse.
6. They dedicate almost the entire screen to a worthless animation of what the car thinks it sees. Sure it’s “cool” but it’s a waste of precious screen real estate and frankly shows their hand on how bad their camera recognition really is.
The whole thing seems super arrogant to me. Maybe before the age of CarPlay and android auto it made sense to build software as a car company and was a differentiator, but not today - my next car definitely won’t be a Tesla for precisely this reason.
I thought I'd miss CarPlay, but the charger/dock is right under the screen and perfectly visible; so if I need to run an app on my phone it's right there anyways - easy to see and control. Hey Siri works fine for me as well.
CarPlay just seems like a bandaid on bad car software, which still isn't well tied into the car's climate controls or other settings anyway so you have this weird half and half experience.
GM is reversing course and making their own system and will no longer support CarPlay. Manufacturers want the subscription money and control, I wouldn't be surprised if more pull back.
Having those apps run on the main screen has advantages...
- touchscreen is easier to access
- screen is bigger
- screen is better placed (less eye movement = safer)
For media apps at least, they can be controlled fine from the buttons to the steering wheel, no need to take your eyes off the road. Any navigation app you're going to have to look over anyways. I've used Waze in a Tesla, didn't take me any more time to look at that than the map on the upper screen.
The steering wheel is going to control an app running natively in the phone (which is sitting in a cradle, and not linked by CP/AA)? That's what the post above mine was asserting worked well.
Why does the climate control need to be in the same UI as the entertainment or nav?
My Honda has physical buttons for HVAC and that's just fine.
What are use cases for fully-integrating the entertainment/nav into the rest of the car? The only one I can think of is coupling nav to battery state management in EVs (and yeah, that's a BIG one).
There's all kinds of integrations - my app can control the climate, the cameras are integrated with data where I can see a live feed of my dog in the Tesla from the app. Physical buttons can't change, while Tesla is constantly improving the UI for things. Hell even watching YouTube in the Tesla will automatically turn off the headlights.
Tesla's software isn't just 'infotainment' it extends to controllers across the entire vehicle - all can be improved with software updates.
>watching YouTube in the Tesla will automatically turn off the headlights
Now I'm picturing a Tesla kool-aid drinker driving down the highway with their fully self beta ludicrous speed engaged, watching youtube with their headlights off.
In fact I believe there have been studies showing how positively dangerous making everything controlled by a touch screen is.
I’m calling it - 10 years from
now, a car company will roll out “physical controls” as a feature and it will be heralded as a great advancement in usability.
Tesla came out with their first car in 2008, so we are not talking about a "first gen iPhone" with the Model 3 (which came out in 2017). The point is that Tesla is squandering their huge lead.
It's charting % change from 2021 - 2022 vehicle sales.
If you add a couple other manufacturers from the [1] source data, this becomes more apparent. Rivian sales were up 12-million% in the same time period. Doesn't mean Rivian is crushing the market.
This chart is showing that Tesla went from selling 331,000 vehicles in 2021 to 491,000 vehicles in 2022. And while Toyota (by comparison) looks bad on the tweet you linked, they sold about 5x the vehicles that Tesla did in the same time period.
Tesla's growth in that period can largely be chalked up to being "a vehicle manufacturer with EVs in stock and available to sell". That special position is starting to erode, and will erode further with time.
When customers can easily choose between a range of EVs available from a range of manufacturers, things like, "can I trust my vehicle to warn me when I'm about to back into another car" will matter a lot more.
I personally don't think Tesla is going to tank, but I do think they're going to have to work to be competitive to a different standard than they have in the past.
Sure, my Ioniq 5’s software isn’t as good as Tesla’s and I’ll never have all those experimental features.
What I do have that a 2023 Tesla will never have, no matter how many updates it gets:
- A dash in my center view that is as or more informative than Tesla’s while driving
- Blind spot camera feeds that pop up prominently on said dash as needed instead of some corner of a tablet in the middle of the car
- A HUD that maps most of the important driving information directly onto the windshield, including navigation arrows “on” the road
- Physical controls I don’t have to look at to find while driving
I also have ADHD. If I look away from the windshield it’s a little random when I get back. Without these types of things that keep my eyes front and center by putting the prettiest lights there, I’ll be in trouble someday, and maybe get someone else in trouble too.
Tesla’s entire car UI aesthetic of drawing attention away from the centerline and then making you search a screen is simply fundamentally flawed and is detrimental to safety. Nobody will ever convince me otherwise because I know it’s detrimental to mine, and I know I’m just a canary. What affects me affects others, I’m just the one where it’s easier to have a consequence.
Plus, to the subject at hand, my Ioniq has parking sensors with collision avoidance and the best 360 view I’ve ever seen, with a 3D reconstruction of your car and surroundings you can swipe around with a virtual camera.
And just to seal the argument, the MY would’ve been cheaper when I bought my Ioniq 5 less than a month ago. I still bought the Hyundai. It’s safer.
PS of all of the features it has, my Tesla MY owning friends seem to want this last one most:
I don't want anything but the most basic software in my car. As long as you can plug in an Android device, it doesn't matter - it's not the core competence of an auto maker.
Really? Does CarPlay have access to my cars controls, cameras, climate, driving alerts, etc..
Nope, you constantly have to switch between CarPlay and the car's own software to do certain things.
In a Tesla it's all integrated together and works great, CarPlay is unnecessary. If I need to use my phone while driving, the phone's screen is perfectly visible from the charger/dock.
Personally I don’t want any controls on the infotainment screen behind some touchscreen. Physical buttons are easier, safer, and quicker, as is a well designed HUD.
I consider the fact Tesla requires you to poke around in its software a huge design flaw and safety concern.
I can’t think of the last time I had to use my cars software over CarPlay - all the apps I need are there, and they do things teslas can’t that I rely on
I like the lack of any screen in front of my face - no distractions, just the road. The buttons on the steering wheel are all I need. Voice control works fine as well.
I used CarPlay in my old car, it was great, thought I would miss it in a Tesla, but nope, I can see my phone screen fine from the dock and bluetooth audio works as well.
But as long as it is such an important part of the car the software must be at least as reliable and well built as, say, the gearbox. If auto makers want their cars to be rolling computers they have to embrace the technology. Half hearted efforts at touchscreens and ux is not good enough.
Except that Tesla is the keyboard. They are never going to duplicate every app on iOS and Android, so they should focus on connecting those OSes to their screens, speakers, and physical controls (like volume) rather than build something just for their hardware.
100% agree. One of the most consistent irritations with my Tesla is the inability to use CarPlay. The only thing that Tesla does better is navigation. And even then, it's only because built-in knowledge about superchargers and battery SOC. This information can be made available via CarPlay.
Coming back from a 1k km trip with a Model YLR. Software was much nicer than VW/BMW/Audi/Renault/GM.
100kw supercharging just worked and got us to a free charger. Really nice compared to the competition.
The one really bad thing was how loud the car was. Wind noise was at 150km/h at a level a BMW had at 190km/h. Also AI/car detection was really bad in (heavy) rain.
(Without rain) Also on German roads, traffic speed sign detection was totally random. Signs not detected, signs detected that are not there. ID3 E.g. had none of these problems I guess b/c they use map data for speed limits not speed sign detection.
All in all I'd nevertheless buy the Tesla not the ID3.
> Tesla Model Y Grabs 49% of Denmark’s EV Market in March
Inertia. It works both ways - they may coast on their past reputation now, but when the market catches up, they'll find it hard to regain customers even if they course-correct.
In this analogy, Tesla is BlackBerry, right? BlackBerry was one of the first usable smartphones, developed a huge market share by doing their own quirky thing, then a bunch of new upstarts (Apple, Samsung, etc.) come onto the scene and eat BlackBerry's lunch by actually building what customers want.
My wife's Hyundai UI is absolutely terrible, laggy and jumbled mess. It's only usable because you can ignore it and use CarPlay. That requires a physical cable which is annoying.
What doesn't it compete on? Model 3 is much quicker. Beauty is definitely subjective. I don't love the Model 3, but find the Ioniq quite ugly. They compete on price.
Model 3 performance is 3.1 0-60, Ioniq 6 performance is 5.1. That’s pretty big. On the low end model 3 is 5.8 vs Ioniq 6 is 8-9 seconds, also much slower.
I'd like to know this too! I have a Polestar 2 and with the recent software updates, the only thing I feels it is beaten on with the Tesla is that it is a little less efficient.
But for me for looks, interior etc, the Polestar is miles ahead of the Model 3.
The problem with CarPlay in my Ioniq 5, as I detailed in my sibling reply to the post you replied to, is that it doesn't inform the car's own nav-based features like the dashboard directions or the HUD navigation arrow. If I use CarPlay nav I simply don't get those.
I think Chevy is going to Android's whole-car auto system, not just Android Auto. In that system phone based nav probably does do things like inform dashboards and HUDs. And I think Apple has a CarPlay version out or coming that has similar capabilities. Only, Chevy and probably any other manufacturer is not going to make a car that wires two systems all the way through the car.
So I think it's not gonna be just Chevy, and since Android has more design wins announced than Apple as well as probably the brighter future outlook for market share (by way of being hedged across multiple sources) I think you might be looking down the barrel of either this standardizes, or Apple's out.
Just keep in mind the tradeoffs. For example, I was thrilled to get CarPlay in my Ioniq 5 until I realized A) it's wired, as I guess there's some exclusivity deal Apple has for wireless in cars with their own nav, and B) I lose features like the HUD-displayed navigation arrows, since that only works with native nav.
Upshot is I end up using native nav and really only use CarPlay for phone-based audio apps. I've only had the car for a few weeks, so maybe I settle into a different pattern long-term but I doubt it. I bought it for stuff like HUD-based nav, so having it be either/or probably means no CarPlay.
The Polestar 3 (a SUV like the Y) is almost twice the price. The Polestar 2 is a very good answer to the Model 3, and you can even upgrade it with a lidar.
The Ford software seems fine. The latest update to the Mach-E lets me control many things onscreen with a physical knob, which is great (and I think not something Teslas do), and I want Apple CarPlay for everything else anyway.
I also feel like the fancy software features ate up a lot of resources for not much return, which makes me wonder how much cheaper EVs could get with a more basic/classic set of features (and hardware supporting them). Only need a backup camera, all the sensors can go except for backup, no need for a GPU/PC/AI ASICs on board, etc. Basically a 2014 Ford with an EV drivetrain.
Yep. We need the electric equivalent of a starter car with good range and basic hardware. I'd take a car with roll-up windows, physical buttons, single A/C controls, 4 doors, 300 mile range, and a backup cam.
Would the masses take it? Who knows. But I'd be all in on that one.
The majority of the cost of any EV is in the batteries. They make them faux-luxury to justify the price that they cost. A stripper EV is going to cost only a couple thousand less than anything out right now.
Maybe relax on the 300mi range and get a Nissan Leaf.
It reminds me of housing which is in a very similar situation. Developers will often throw in something nice like a granite countertop and use that as justification for jacking up the price way beyond the cost of those additions because a majority of the cost lies elsewhere.
These luxury features aren't why these products are so expensive. They are thrown in to segment the market and make people feel better about spending this huge amount of money. There is no incentive for the people producing these products to remove these luxuries.
Soon the only option for people who can't afford or simply don't want to buy the new luxury product is to buy an old and rundown version of what was once a luxury product. New affordable alternatives just aren't as profitable so they aren't produced anymore in the quantities that we actually need.
Given that the govt already has a gazillion auto subsidies, perhaps they should do something to encourage an affordable no-frills EV with good range. I for one would pay more for a vehicle like that.
I would too. The problem is, like the mini phones, there aren't enough of us, and the profit margin small enough (manufactures make more money on luxury vehicles), that automakers don't see a point. Add in a great number of safety regulations (eg mandatory backup cameras in the US since 2013, automated emergency braking (AEB) in the EU since 2022) which all bring up the price of cars, means that we're relegated to the pre-2017 used car market.
The battery still drives costs to some extent, but the bigger issue is manufacturing capacity; you can only make so many EVs on the existing production lines (including battery factory capacity), and there's plenty of high-end demand to consume the supply, so you're not going to leave money on the table selling a cheap car.
People who want a cheap EV just have to do what every cost-conscious consumer does when a new technology comes along: wait. At some point there will be plenty of EVs for the PMC and it will make sense to build one for the rest of us.
It is really hard to recommend getting a Leaf in 2023, at least in the US, unless you _only_ plan to charge at home. The Leaf still uses the Chademo plug, (I believe it's the last car sold in the US that does so) where as CCS is becoming the standard here. The Chevy Bolt is otherwise a similar car for a similar price.
My rav4 prime has a combined range well north of 500 miles and I need every bit of it-because I live in the sticks and we’re not to the point of being able to charge comparably. Something’s got to give.
It should be very possible in a decade or so to extend charging capacity to the boondocks. Just look at where we were ten years ago, versus today. In the meantime, if you can install even a slow 220V/12A charger in your garage, a PHEV should be quite effective.
Quite, it’s about a 90/10 split right now. 80/20 would really be something.
Edit Just to expand on this, the current 90/10 split (500 miles gas/40ish electric) has cut my long distance drive gas usage down by something like 50-75%. If it were more like 500 miles gas/100 miles electric that’d probably cut it down to 2-4 gallons of gas per month or less. Around my house is already fully electric with the 10%.
The numbers I have not done are would simply going inline series with the gas be better than having the traditional power train and electric. In line meaning a generator to fire up the amps needed when the batter gets low-how modern trains work. I’m guessing it’s not so obvious since BMW cancelled their range extender.
That census definition of urban/rural is different from the colloquial definition. The census link allows an "urban" classification as low as 2,500 people.
Colloquially-defined rural areas have been decimated by globalization in the last 40 years. The "rural" area I grew up in had thousands of manufacturing jobs; now it may have 200. The drop in GDP goes far beyond urban sprawl enabled by ICE vehicles.
2000 is far far too low to declare things urban. That line should be drawn at least above 10k-20k, I think.
Also critical infrastructure is out “in the sticks” like dams, power infrastructure (lines/plants/storage), and the support of the container trucks. Then there’s agriculture. It all needs to be electrified and reachable by electrics.
I generally hate that rural areas are so over-represented in US politics but jesus, some of the comments in this thread are making me question that. There is some serious big city myopia going on here. Not everyone can and wants to live their entire lives in a dense city and that's perfectly fine.
To me, rolling your windows looks as funny as cranking the engine. It's a simple motor that doesn't consume a lot of power as far as I can tell. It probably costs manufacturers $30/door for a huge UX improvement (at least for me), with no maintenance. It cannot possibly be the first thing in a list of conveniences to give up.
We have villages in Eastern Europe that don't have plumbing or gas, yet they have fiber optic cable and free and fast public Wi-Fi, so you see horse-pulled carts carrying villagers with laptops.
That's what I'd feel like in 2023 rolling my own window in an EV.
Window motors require wiring looms through the hinge void, which can wear out, plus the motors, switches and a logic board to handle "one touch" operation. All cross-wired through the car so that the driver can command all windows.
I think the big issue is that this hypothetical car would still cost $30k-$40k before tax benefits.
While I think plenty of buyers yearn for a "traditional" car, it's hard to justify one with the added base cost of electric. The Nissan Leaf got pretty close to this (albeit with less range) and while it sold OK, it was far from a barn-busting success.
The marginal cost of adding gizmos and gadgets to an electric car is not very high due to the large base cost sunk into the platform, so we get gizmos and gadgets.
>The marginal cost of adding gizmos and gadgets to an electric car is not very high due to the large base cost sunk into the platform
This may be plausible, but is there data to support it? Because, anecdotally, all the add-ons of "gizmos and gadgets" options can blow up the price. For example, a base F-150 is $43,325. The Platinum options package adds over $23k in just options.
I suspect the more likely culprit is manufacturing cost and efficiency. It just makes more sense to make electric windows the default when the majority of people are going to pay for them anyways.
I have the opposite complaint. I don't need 300 miles of range, 100 would be more than enough. I can rent a traditional car if I need to take a road trip. But I do want a nice interior, and other "premium" features, such as a heads-up display, lane keeping assist, 360-degree camera, etc.
For the car you're describing, check out the Chevy Bolt EV/EUV. It's the closest car to what you're asking for, although it doesn't have a 300 mile range. It may be hard though, Chevy is moving all they can make.
A used EV with a fairly depleted battery could work well for your use case. Only problem is that lane keep assist was pretty lousy in many cars until recently.
Unfortunately the ID.4 is a bit too techified for my taste. The smart system to control windows and mirrors crashed while driving on the highway once, closing the mirrors inwards so I couldn't use them and stopping me from rolling down the windows.
I love my ID.4 very much but it is not the entry level EV described at 40K and up. The Leaf and the Chevy Bolt clock in at under 30K which is much closer.
Neither is the Model 3, either, which is the point of comparison. The Model 3 will still set you back a minimum of $47K (plus taxes, title, yada yada).
Almost anything but the leaf. Doesn't charge much. Terrible battery lifetime because they don't have a battery management system (heat/cool the battery). Only charges with chademo, not ccs, 50kw. They are cheaper. Buy the chevy bolt, that's the best starter/low end basic car.
Citroen seems to be the closest to making these a reality. The Ami and Oli are wild, weird, but absurdly practical starter cars marketed to a slightly-more-sophisticated-than-starter-car demographics.
The Oli is especially impressive in that they've learned that you can sacrifice battery capacity, and if you just keep the car lightweight and aerodynamic enough, you can still get decent range. They're claiming a (pretty phenomenal) 6.2 miles per kWh, and for a car targeting a price point starting at $20k that offers the utility of a small city car, SUV, and pickup truck in a single vehicle, I find it compelling, even as the sort of person for whom this is the least viable car.
And if $20k sounds like too much, the Ami is less impressive, but I think starts at closer to $10k.
Surprised the Chinese automakers haven't been mentioned. BYD is currently the world's largest EV seller. The Dolphin for example is exactly what you mention -- as basic an EV can get, and probably as cheap as it can get as well.
Yeah I don't think it's cheap in absolute terms, just that it's probably as cheap as you can get it right now. I don't think they have left any corners uncut with that car.
Real 300 winter miles range means paper 400+ miles WLTP. And this is where expensive cars start. Real 300 kilometers look better, but still doable with rather expensive cars.
Yeah, I considered a Model Y last year, but the range in winter for EVs is a non-starter for me. People don't realize how significant a drop in range occurs in cold weather.
Depends on how cold, and if you set your car to charge and warm up the battery before you leave. I have 10 years of driving to ski areas around the PNW. It's never mattered that much. But it doesn't get that cold here either. Parking it at a hotel where the high was 25 degrees did seem to reduce range a little, but not enough to matter.
But there are stories of people driving them in below 0 F where if you don't warm it up in the morning (via setting the leave time when charging) they have real loss. This is another area tesla is way ahead, with the battery mgmt system working better in the cold, plus the heat pump. People in cold Quebec also suffer this cold weather.
I live in the central Plains. It's normal for many days between Dec 1 and Feb 1 to be below 32ºF, and not unusual at all to be subzero in the day time. Even prewiring the battery won't help as much as you imply. Sure Tesla may be better than competitors at battery management, but that doesn't mean the battery life is any good in this type of weather. If your "normal" range is 300m, but drops to 180 in cold weather, then it dramatically affects your route planning since you'll need to recharge far more often. And while there are Superchargers in the Midwest, there aren't that many.
I don't think that quite exists, but the Chevy Bolt has good range, is the same price as like a Honda Accord, and everything critical has physical buttons.
What’s even better is an infotainment system old enough that it has the standard double DIN interface, so you can trivially swap in a brand new CarPlay unit.
Yes. I've never used a car infotainment system that was better than CarPlay. Plus Android Auto/CarPlay allow me to leverage stuff I'm already paying for (Spotify, 3G connectivity, etc) to enhance the car.
I feel Tesla and Netflix are really similar. They spent a huge amount of money on software but they failed to understand, they are not a software company. I have moved on from Tesla to the Taycan and the Ionic and they are both better products today.
The real question is whether Tesla's software is better than CarPlay/Android Auto. I don't want my car manufacturer competing with Apple/Google and their 3rd party app ecosystems because they're going to lose every time. Give me the controls I need to drive the car as physical buttons/levers, let my phone take over the infotainment system.
But not everyone cares about the software that much in their cars.
I don't care about playing Doom or The Witcher on the giant touchscreen infotainment system in my car, nor do I want any so called "smart" featured that don't work right half the time.
Give me Android/Apple connect and physical knobs and switches and I'm good.
The software? I haven't even thought about it as much till you asked this question. But the Taycan and the Ionic are both a better car at this stage than a Tesla.
how long are you sitting in your car that you need a 15 inch screen for entertainment. are you a taxi driver? on the rare occasions when you have to wait that long, just get your ipad with you.
I often need to wait for a family member to do some shopping, or wait somewhere to pick a family member up. So yea if I couldn't use the large screen already built into the car, I would have to use an iPad I guess. Watching YouTube in the Tesla automatically turns off the headlights and dims the canopy lights which is nice. Total integration.
I have a VW e-Up and it's basically that. 160 miles of electric range, analog gauges, real buttons for everything, it has a reverse camera and parking sensors but that's about it. I love it. It's amazingly simple - you turn the key and drive, nothing to worry about. And new these were/are about £20k.
I read a while ago that these cars are pretty much unobtainable. Can someone shed some light as to why this is? The premise of the car seems like it would sell very well.
The same reason why most other EVs are unobtainable - the production line is maxed out and orders are closed through 2023. There's loads of second hand ones for sale that I can see online, and personally I got mine through a lease deal - signed paperwork, got the car delivered 3 days later. If I wanted to order one I'd probably wait a year.
I believe most of those are so-called compliance cars, cars designed to mainly satisfy imposed legal requirements, such as weighted average of CO2 emissions for a brand.
Sure, but they only fulfil that purpose if they sell loads. Just it existing does nothing for manufacturer's averages. They need to sell one of these for every 200g CO2/km car to average 100g CO2/km overall.
It's the opposite. All of these fancy features cost almost nothing extra for the manufacturer but are used to bump up the price by $10-20K over an equivalent no-frills car.
Actually.... when I worked there seven years ago, I wrote a point-by-point memo explaining why 48V was such a win (trying to move to 48V for falcon wing doors), even having the TI guys build for us some custom PCBs w/+12 to +48V converters that we could try for the powerful motors required.
However....the decision was made to stick with +12V because, mainly, the Industry pumped out accessories (door locks, fans, you name it) that run on +12, and hence +48 would be 'custom' (read: 'expensive'). Was also true of the actuators. The moby FETs needed to switch the current existed and heatsinking wasn't too much of a problem, and so.... +12V it was. Big-ass thick wires... ok....
It seems some others inside found my memo recently -- or re-discovered what I had found -- and, finally, +48V seems to be moving into vehicles. With a +48V LiFePo battery, it should work really well. And to the original comment here: yes, your copper wiring is smaller because E x I is same but I*2*R is less because I is less for given power. Note the squared term; that is why +48V is a win.
Somehow, it seems like some folks (I am by no means the first!) 'see the future' but for reasons I don't fully understand, The Future seems to take longer to get here than necessary.
> Somehow, it seems like some folks (I am by no means the first!) 'see the future' but for reasons I don't fully understand, The Future seems to take longer to get here than necessary.
Microsoft tried to sell the world on Smart TVs back when most Americans had dial up.
Smart car infotainment back in I think it was 2008 or 2009, complete with voice control.
Sometimes being early can be worse than being late.
Do you actually think the removal of a few bundles of wires will make any sort of difference in either price or weight when the battery pack weighs around 1000lbs and costs $10-20k to replace?
Teslas have fewer chips than legacy OEMs due to better integration. They are already the most cost efficient EVs to build, and they’re making further progress as described on investor day.
1. Their "self driving" adaptive cruise is very bad compared to other brands. Because they dropped radar and don't use proven modules like others.
2. Same for their idiotic attempt to replace well working sensors for automatic wipers with not working cameras.
3. And now this next thing on parking sensors that just don't work.
Still hordes of people are stupid enough to believe Musk claiming it's all great innovation and good for the customer. While in reality things just don't work and Tesla is cutting corners.
Elon Musk is a prime example of an "alternative facts" kind of liar. Keep shouting loud enough and some people start te believe you. He got very far with all his lies, but so did Bernie Madoff...
Not sure which reality you are in, adaptive cruise and automatic wipers works great in my car. What data are you basing "adaptive cruise is very bad compared to others" and "automatic wipers with not working cameras" on?
23 MY owner here - I have been very unimpressed with the automatic wipers in my car, especially in intermittent rain/water thrown up from the car in front, or snowy conditions/lots of salt on the road - they seem to either want to wipe like crazy and smear the windshield, or they never trigger when most of the windshield is covered. This wouldn't be quite as annoying except that the wiper interface isn't physical, and having to reach over to the touch screen to change wiper speed when you're already in a reduced visibility situation is not a great UI! I basically end up just pressing the one physical button to trigger a one-off windshield wipe a lot.
This was a pretty big disappointment for me coming from a 2005 (!) Audi A4 which has auto wipers that work _almost_ flawlessly (and has a physical adjustment on the stalk when I need to override).
I'm very much not a Tesla hater - overall I _love_ the car. I just wish a few details were different (speedometer & nav more directly in line of site, physical controls for windshield wipers, CarPlay integration). I've just been kinda shocked how bad the auto wipers are for a brand new car.
Adaptive Cruise works well for me though, although I enjoy the act of driving so I don't use it all that often other than long straight highways.
Lmao in your own personal world perhaps. Out of spec has a basic freeway test on youtube - most cars ping pong within lanes, shut off when the road curves too much and/or only work on select mapped sections of freeways.
You can diss the wipers or parking sensors but pretending that the competition is anywhere near autopilot, especially the newest one based on FSD code, is hilarious.
> out of spec has a basic freeway test on youtube - most cars ping pong within lanes
Maybe several years ago. My car stays happily in the center of the lane -and- doesn't veer to the right with offramps, or lane count changes.
One of the problems with some Tesla owners is they buy too fully into the "dinosaur" thinking, and assume that other manufacturers have not adjusted their thinking since the 90s.
My car actively maps the road ahead and will, while staying in lanes, avoid potholes, for one very simple example.
What do curves have to do with adaptive cruise control? That's just keeping a speed and a distance, without randomly hitting the brakes. Other brands do it much better than Tesla at the moment.
The distance is detected by radar or sonar and comes from the front of the car. A curve means you’re no longer dead on to the car in front of you — and in extreme cases, are dead on to a car from another lane. This proved difficult for the radar packages of the 00s
The early mobileeye autopilot was actually pretty good, it did traffic aware cruise control and autosteer, making driving easier. Everything after that seems only marginally better.
I’d never want to rely on the power grid to be mobile in a widespread emergency. EV might be okay as a second car. I’ve lived through civil unrest so maybe just my bias.
Oh, but you do, even if you drive a traditional car!
Most gas stations - for both diesel and gasoline - rely on electricity to pump the gas. No electic = no gas. The stations that run during outages generally have generators to do so. You might have some luck for a short time.
After that, no power, no generator, no gas. The trucks won't even be able to get diesel to deliver it to you.
..... ? A small backup generator is all that's required for the gas pumps to work. The state of Florida now mandates gas stations have back up power on evacuation routes, a law enacted from painful lessons learned from all of the problems caused by Hurricanes Wilma and Katrina. The state of Louisiana I believe also has a similar requirement but I haven't checked.
Whether your car is electric or not, you're relying on an external power distribution system to keep it working. Gas has to be moved to you just as much as electricity does.
If you're running a diesel vehicle, all you need is a tank in your shed (for ~1000€ [1]) and an inverter powered by your car's 12V battery to run the pump. Assuming your vehicle is barely efficient (10 l / 100km), a full tank load is enough to last you for 10.000km.
Electric vehicles are a bit harder, but even there, it's possible to install enough solar panels and battery storage to last virtually infinitely.
Disaster resilience is easy to achieve, if a bit expensive if you're going on a "full societal breakdown" scenario. No matter what, unless you're a grain farmer with storage, you're running out of food way before running out of transportation.
Diesel has an average shelf life of 12 months if stored at a temperature below 20°C (68°F). As the temperatures rise, shelf life goes down. Additives (biocides and stabilizers) available to extend life but maybe maximum a few years. NFPA 110 diesel standard is "1.5 to 2 years of storage life.".
> all you need is a tank in your shed
Maybe two tanks so you can rotate fresh fuel - now deliver and pumping is a regular operation? Must be designed so water doesn’t condense (not just drums?). Or underground to help if you in warmer climate? Keeping diesel around for decades while waiting for a disaster is going to be a hassle.
Perhaps solar on your roof and an electric car is likely to be more practical (depending on your personal constraints).
I offroad and camp in the backcountry a lot, often 100s of km from the nearest gas station (let alone anything with an ev charger) and then might be driving area the area hiking/climbing away from camp.
Hard for an ev to beat two 20L jerry cans adding 300km of range to a tank with 450, in the winter, with 500lb of gear. I imagine one day a PHEV will replace my truck but we’re not there yet.
Don’t take the collapse of society to suddenly need to grab a few jerry cans and travel a long way quick where there is no ev chargers
In which case you'd be far better served with an electric car and rooftop solar. Gas supplies disappear. Electricity is needed to run pumps. But no one can cut off a home solar generation system short of bombing your house.
You rely on the power grid for gasoline too. Gas doesn't pump without electricity. Also, refineries are a more concentrated source of failure than power stations and a grid.
If I'm getting nervous from Civil Unrest (or just a really bad snowstorm coming up in Canada), I can always grab a few 5-gallon containers, fill them up at a Gas Station, and keep them in my garage just in case, along with filling up my car. If nothing happens, I'll just use them up. If something does happen... I don't want to be the guy with the EV trying to get away when everyone else is also trying to use the EV charging stations for the same reason. If the charging stations are even functional.
Plus, an electric car (or any valuable car) is prime target during civil unrest. It's fun to destroy expensive stuff. It's not fun to destroy a mid-2000s Civic.
Just keep your car charged (easy to do with at-home charging) and you'll almost always have 200+ miles of range available. If you need to travel further than that to safety, you have bigger problems (and traffic will probably be jammed to the point of roads being unusable anyways).
I understand buying something extra just to be prepared, but to drive a Civic because someone might destroy it 5 years from now seems like optimizing for 0.001% of the time at the expense of 99.999% of your time. Plus, there's insurance.
Gasoline can't be manufactured in your backyard, the solar panels on my roof produce over 100 kwh per day half the year, with battery storage my house and transportation can function without grid support.
This may be an apartment dweller/SFH split kind of thing. I have multiple gasoline, diesel and oil/gas mix cans. Most people around here do, for lawnmowers, snowthrowers, chainsaws, etc.
The only time I didn't have one was when I lived in apartments.
I live in a house, but I don't own a oil based lawnmowers, chainsaws etc. (just battery or direct electric), I don't have such a large property to justify oil ones :)
My in-laws have a larger property but they also go with electric based tools, but yeah one of their neighbors does have such lawnmower (I would probably buy robot one, but...).
But you are right I forgot that there are tools that do require gasoline, 30 years ago those gas cans were used for storing gasoline for use in a car or motor (when I lived in apartments).
You should consider that the other manufacturers have demonstrated absolutely no software acument at all. What should be amazing in 2023 is that the SW is total crap in the typical car.
It's not that Tesla is good. Tesla's in-car SW is not good, it's just the least crap in a crapsack industry.
Most other car manufacturers have the good sense to include support for CarPlay and Android Auto, so you can mostly just ignore the craptastic built-in software.
All my objections to Tesla melted away after I took one for a test drive. They outclass the competition in every way. It's not just the software, it's the driving experience. The Model 3 is a rocket ship and handles like a 911 for half the price.
Plus Tesla serves customers who don't want a silly crossover -- most other brands are only making EV crossovers. If you want a smaller car you don't have very many choices, and most of them cost more (e.g. Porsche Taycan, the Audi version of the Taycan).
I have autocrossed various cars competitively including a model 3 and a 911 GT3.
There is nothing "Bad" about the model 3 handling, but nothing good either. It is vastly under-tired for how heavy it is, but of course you can fix that with big wheels and tires. It also has no adjustable front camber, a necessity to set up a car to handle decently. Its just got a totally normal suspension, and is atypically heavy with atypically narrow tires.
Now does it set good times on certain tracks? Absolutely, because it has 500 horsepower from "idle" up to a pretty decent speed. On tight, short tracks it can power out of corners in an absurd manner.
But the "handling" is really kind of bad, which can be fixed in the same way you can fix any cars handling (aftermarket coilovers, a proper alignment, and big tires)
Ok, it all works the same on public roads too, and isn't as good as a 911 there either?
I realize there is a valid point here that actual handling doesn't matter other than "the steering feels fun to me for whatever reason" and sure, the Tesla does that decently. So does a Mazda CX-50 crossover for some reason. (I dunno why but they gave it the sportiest steering feel ever)
All my objections to Tesla were validated after I took one for a test drive. It felt cheap, the ride was fine but nothing special, and the control scheme (with that touchscreen) was awful. I also can't agree with you at all on the handling. It certainly handles better than a Honda accord, but nowhere near a 911 unless you're driving in a straight line. Teslas are hard to beat in a straight line thanks to the torque from the electric motors.
Also, as a practical matter, you have to ride the accelerator pedal in a Tesla because the car will roll to a stop in a very short distance if you don't. With most other cars, you can hover your foot over the brake to prepare for an emergency. I assume that some fraction of the people whose Teslas "accelerated out of control" when they were trying to hit the brake didn't realize this.
When you get used to it, driving other cars just feel dangerous. Like if for any reason if your feet leave the pedals the car will just fly out of control and not slow down.
Even taking your foot off the brake at an intersection will cause the car to drive right into it. That seems crazy when coming from a car that when it is stopped, it remains stopped.
Holding the brake is like holding the trigger of a grenade.
It may seem odd, but it is pretty key to reaction time - studies on this have shown that it takes about 2 seconds for an emergency stop when you're actively using the accelerator pedal (which is almost 100% of the time your Tesla is rolling forward), while it only takes a little under a second to do an emergency stop when your foot is over the brake. The car rolling forward when no pedal is applied is actually a safety feature, weirdly (although an accidental one).
Yea, but the Tesla can brake faster automatically in an emergency faster than I can realize an emergency is happening.
And again, when I drive cars that don't slow down without input, or creep, it just feels more out of control and dangerous. The Tesla is inherently safer by quickly slowing down when no input is applied.
I'm sure that it feels safer, but a lot of people felt safer in cars without airbags too.
Also, relying only on auto-braking is a really bad idea. A lot of people have died doing that (not just in Teslas). It works 99.9% of the time, but that other 0.1%...
Having a car quickly slow down and stop automatically is inherently safer. Most other cars will continue coasting/creeping until they hit something. There's really no way to spin how that is better/safer.
The single-pedal braking can be turned off in the settings. I have no idea why coasting and hovering over the brake is ever a good idea in any circumstances, but if you really want to do that, you can.
if you are driving defensively? you may think there is potential for brake usage in the upcoming section of highway, so you might take your foot off the accelerator and hover the brake just in case. I believe this is pretty common.
at least when I drove a model s this wasn't really possible because the car would slow rapidly when I took my foot off the accelerator. nice to know that can be disabled, ill look for it next time I'm driving a tesla
Plus Tesla serves customers who don't want a silly crossover -- most other brands are only making EV crossovers. If you want a smaller car you don't have very many choices, and most of them cost more (e.g. Porsche Taycan, the Audi version of the Taycan).
This is probably a product of where you are. I see plenty of actual EVs in a lot of shapes and sizes and from what I can tell, price ranges. (Not actually in the market for a car, so I'm unsure of any sizes). Of course, I'm in Norway and there are many electric cars on the road and they've been building the infrastructure for them - and the mix of brands available and what brands are cheaper than others would vary quite a bit from, say, the US.
> now there are lots of good options available and it's no longer necessary to put up with this
Tesla has its battery supply chain nailed down to a degree its competition can only dream of. That’s slowly changing. But they likely have another half decade of margin advantage before the majors begin to seriously bite into their volume.
It more sounds like overly strict bean counters have won some internal battle at Tesla, thereby ensuring cost cutting measures are winning out over everything else. Regardless of brand damage, etc.
Did they have a change of CFO or similar in the last 6 months?
But it makes no sense. Why parking sensors? Why not find a cheaper supplier for upholstery or remove any of the completely unnecessary and barely noticeable non-functional elements of what's still a luxury brand? Surely ultrasound ranging sensors are dirt cheap, and the reaction of the press 100% predictable, so it should've been obvious to any bean counter that this is a self-harming move.
There really aren’t any, they all have some sort of tradeoff - usually many.
More expensive, worse range, worse charger network, worse software etc.
I wish there was more competition in the space, it’s starting but the legacy companies wasted a decade doing nothing (other than trying to pass legislation so they could continue to do nothing).
imo the only advantage tesla has remaining in its price class is the charging network (which is now open to non-teslas, albeit with a worse UX).
Kia and Hyundai have some solid options. If I were in the market for a car at the moment I'd probably go with the Hyundai Ioniq 5. The software isn't quite what you get in a Tesla, but I honestly prefer just using CarPlay (wired, unfortunately, but you can get an adapter for wireless).
You lose a bit of the "cool factor" with these like the weird Tesla keys, and the mobile apps aren't great (though they may have improved in the last 1.5y since I've seen them). But as a car, they function very well and have features similar to Tesla's AutoPilot - just called something like Adaptive Cruise like it should be.
I also tried Teslas and ultimately wound up with an EV6, which I love. It is missing some features that Teslas have, but also has some features Teslas don't, such as plentiful buttons in the cabin and the ability to charge other EVs (or power part of your house) from its battery.
Competition isn’t really a thing in the short term. Every EV manufacturer is selling every car they are capable of producing for at least the next year or so. Someday I guess supply will catch up with demand and then we’ll see if Tesla can keep up.
If you believe the competition is 'catching up' it should be lower. If you believe they've been saying that for 10 years and it hasn't happened, then it should be higher.
It's one of the least efficient EVs out there. I have an Audi E-tron, which is also one of the worst. I still save compared to gas, but I was hoping to save a lot more. To compare, the Model3 is twice as efficient as the Rivian.
Competition is here! Ford's electric F150 is selling quite well, and most of the other major auto brands have electric options on the market too. I haven't seen the sales figures, Tesla is probably still leading the EV segment at the moment, but they need to do something to keep up. They haven't put anything that they've announced on the road since the model 3.
This is just a fantasy. While it reviews well, they are impossible to buy and Ford struggles to make any money from it. Ford sold just 13,000 of them last year. Maybe it might sell well in future, but to date its a rounding error on total F150 sales.
I would recomend actually being familar with the rough sales volumes before passing opinion on them, personally. Tesla's lead is not some fanboy exaggeration.
> They haven't put anything that they've announced on the road since the model 3.
The Model Y, They shipped nearly 800k of them last year alone. The Tesla Semi is also shipping now.
They are impossible to buy because Ford has been selling them faster than they can make them. Will it be the top selling EV of 2023? No. Will Ford keep making them? Absolutely.
They are impossible to buy because Ford loses money on each one. The recent massive price increase doesn't help sales, and is critical to actually stemming the losses in short term. Ford in bald financial terms simply can't sell the F150 Lightning at scale, yet, and timeline to profitable at scale production is not clear at all.
Of the 13k that have been shipped, a very large percentage are registered in Michigan - Ford employees. The amount of F150 Lightnings that have made it through the retail channel to actual customers nationwide is still really low.
13k sales of any vehicle in a year is not fast by any definition appropriate for the US car industry, especially a truck! My point still stands - the F150 Lightning to date has not sold well, at all, loses a lot of money for Ford, and the 150,000 a year by Autumn 23 as Ford previously targeted seems a pipe dream.
Tesla is blowing everyone else out of the water in terms of sales- at least 4x the rest of the market combined. Ford was also losing money on every lightning sold- they've just bumped the base price up again.
The competition is coming, but it won't put a hard crimp on Tesla until battery prices drop significantly and EVs stop being luxury goods.
See the chart on the bottom of the page. The bars are 2022 sales (green for pure EVs, blue for plug-in hybrids), and the numbers to the left are the percent change from 2021.
And they may finally be arriving, which is good; but yeah, they're not here yet. I also feel like Tesla originally expected the competition to catch up much faster, and honestly it feels like a few things actually stumbled when that didn't happen.
Tesla's still riding most of its (IMHO/AFAIK) innovations: EVs as a status symbol; charging network; dealerships; manufacturing. Of those, only manufacturing has any pressure on towards continual improvement. (More chargers has demand, but not pressure).
Still. There's more non-Tesla fast chargers around every year, there's way more way better looking EVs from all the other brands; it is coming. I do think they'll catch up, but I don't know if they'll reach the point of competing for pack leader.
The Ioniq 5 is a solid choice. I regret buying my most recent Tesla and wish I had gotten the Hyundai instead. Especially now that the supercharger network is opening up.
Why would anyone bet against the greatest promoter on earth? Doesn't make sense because the bet isn't restricted enough in scope. I bet people here would be willing to bet on number of sales in the next 10 years if that were possible.
At some point you get dangerously complacent if you believe you’re so far ahead of the competition that they’re forever catching up.
In 1995, when Windows 95 launched, Apple bought newspaper ads highlighting how Microsoft’s new OS was adding features that the Mac had ten years earlier. They completely ignored the reasons why people wanted PCs instead of Macs. The company nearly died and was only saved by the “reverse acquisition” of NeXT and a total platform pivot by Steve Jobs.
Just to be clear, the competition was coming. Now the competition is here.
There are even more competitors coming too.
What you are referring to is the Veblen good effect Tesla has. You think that the brand is beyond competition, which I unfortunately agree with. People buy feelings, and there is a feeling when you buy an Elon Musk product.
I'm sorry but you're wrong. Even Ford's CEO admitted they are way behind.
Tesla isn't the best but they can fail quick and learn from it fast. The reason you see so much hate is probably it comes from the Short and Distort playbooks from hedge funds who want them to fail.
By what metric in the world is Tesla the largest car company? Ford, Toyota, and Chevrolet each produced triple the number of cars over the past year as compared to Tesla.
Largest by market cap. That's mainly due to investor hype. With that logic, you can argue Nikola was a top 10 largest car company in the world at one point (with zero vehicles delivered).
Tesla is not even in top 10 in terms of revenue or number of vehicles sold.
You forgot to include Volkswagen, they delivered 572,000 in 2022 and are still ramping up. And BMW close to 200,000 with their more mainstream models released later in the year so expect rapid growth this year.
I think you'd actually see the opposite. Tesla is building additional EV capacity at an absurd rate, onlining a 500k/yr capacity factory almost every year the last few years (Shanghai, Berlin, Austin) with more on the way (Mexico).
US market:
Nissan sold 12,026 Leaf in 2022. In 2021, Nissan sold 14,239 Leaf. They sold 2,213 more units in year 2021 compared to 2022 with a percent loss of 15.54% YoY.
